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Re: The hunt for Osama
I get a kick out of this story, personally.
I am glad he's dead. he had it coming more than most. But painting this as a brave fight is silly.
The last i heard, 30 to 40 seals converged on the mansion and killed 5 guys, capturing 3 others. possibly women and children.
Lets be clear, i have no problem at all with how this went down. This is exactly what modern warfare is. it isnt about being stronger, or a better fighter, or a better tactician. Kill the bastards while they sleep. There is no reason at all to waste our lives in a dick measuring contest about who is the better general and all that.
Usama never was a supervillain. He was a useless dick-bag who resorted to petty violence when he couldn't get his way. He deserved to die, and any jackass who would throw themselves in front of a bullet for him deserved to die as well, for stupidity, if nothing else. But all the same, 30 to 40 navy seals vs like half a dozen body guards is not at all a fair fight. It was a slaughter. Exactly as it should have been. He was never an existential threat to the US, despite all the carefully cultivated fear that Bush and company tried to fill us with. Usama was a skeezy dirt bag and he ended exactly as a skeezy dirt bag should end.
Not with an up-hill battle against terrifying power, but raided in the night and an execution lit by muzzle flash. I don't think that would make for a good movie.
I just think that our own FEAR machine porpped him up to be more of an opponent than he ever was. An enthusiastic teenager with a potato peeler could have taken him out. The only thing difficult about taking Bin Laden was finding the weasel.
It is satisfying to think he's at the bottom of the ocean being devourered by deep-sea scavenger bugs though...
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
In the absence of God, I found Man. -Guillermo Del Torro
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -Derek Bok
You wouldn't like me when i'm angry... Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources. -The Credible Hulk
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Re: The hunt for Osama
I think i am more angry with the way our political and media establishment handled this than i am with Bin laden.
He was a useless dick, but his power didn't really come from flying stolen planes into some buildings. It came from the horde of chicken-littles who multiplied like locusts in his wake.
I live in a small town, and all the little small minded people who live here kept fearing that Usama and a band of terrorists were going to show up at the local county fair or something and sabotage the freaking salt and pepper shaker.
COME ON. This nail biting, and panty-spraying is what drove what should have been a covert military assasination into two multi-billion dollar wars which squandered our nations good will, fortune, and the lives and mental well being of a generation.
And in the end, it still had to be done with a covert hit squad. We could have saved so much if it had been treated as a police action.... sad
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
In the absence of God, I found Man. -Guillermo Del Torro
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -Derek Bok
You wouldn't like me when i'm angry... Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources. -The Credible Hulk
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Re: The hunt for Osama
Hilarious posts. Yes, the suspense would rely a lot on the importance of killing Osama. I wouldn't mind watching 24 of the worlds best military specialists train simply to kill a rat. It's like the superbowl of the military, even if the opposing team sucks balls. What sorts of nuanced behaviorisms and techniques did they all employ to minimize the chance anything could go wrong?
The speed and ferocity of the assault would be as powerful as a tidal wave, an unstoppable force. Perhaps it's my familiarity with the military, and knowing how demented they become in their pursuit of attention to detail. One of the marines even dodges bullets, matrix style.
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Re: The hunt for Osama
Since it's such a one sided fight, maybe Johnson1010 can swap places with one of the seals on their next mission.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: The hunt for Osama
I am no military man. And certainly not a navy seal.
If you had put me in a room with Usama, one on one, i would have turned his neck into a pretzel, then kicked his head through his body so it rested neatly on his colon.
If you put me in a room with him and half a dozen armed body guards and i would be shot to death.
Put me at the back of a team of 30 to 40 navy seals, and my presence or absence would not be felt. Those guys would have no problem carrying my comparative dead weight.
I am not talking bad about the seals in the least. They did exactly what they are meant to do. And that is NOT to get into fist fights with the strongest henchmen Usama had, like they were in some Stalone movie.
The faster and more efficient they dispatch America's enemies, the more proud they should be. If that means pushing a button and killing somebody half the planet away, then that is exactly what they should do, but let's not say they were in any danger of losing this fight.
If they had lost that fight, then i would have been extremely surpised. The fight was so damned lop-sided because not only was it a 7-1 ratio, but each one of those Seals is a murderous war-machine and they were going up against religious zealots who's greatest skill is ignoring reality, not in defending their lives against close to 40 of the most kill-potent Ninja's the world has ever known.
Usama and his little band of hench men were the equivalent of asking for a glass of water, and we opened up the amazon river on their asses.
It was the right thing to do, as i said, and it should have been what we set out to do from the start.
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
In the absence of God, I found Man. -Guillermo Del Torro
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -Derek Bok
You wouldn't like me when i'm angry... Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources. -The Credible Hulk
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Re: The hunt for Osama
A few comments on the death of Osama Bin Laden.
I am glad he is dead. He was totally crazy. His brand of fundamentalist Islam is retrograde and dangerous. He thrived on the ignorance and resentment of Arabs towards modernity. We are now seeing Arab countries say they want to join the modern world and throw off the backward shackles of ignorant imams. The death of Osama Bin Laden helps show even the ignorant that his brand of fanatical hatred is totally unacceptable and counterproductive.
Osama was a false prophet. He had a vision of the world that did not accord with the facts. Yet, he was able to spin a convincing narrative for millions of followers, and remains admired and respected as a martyr in communities who are deeply hostile to the western world. His brazen act in organising the destruction of the World Trade Center in New York on 11 September 2001 will stand in history as among the most astounding deeds ever. It is rather like the Bible text "Babylon the Great is fallen" from Revelation 18:2, with New York and America cast as Babylon, and Osama as some sort of messianic figure who brings down the mighty and exalts the lowly.
But it is wrong and unfair to cast America as Babylon. Yes, America has many problems, including its excessive military spending, but no, suggesting that Americanism is evil is a dangerous and wrong belief. Islamists ask America to look at itself with repentance, but they do not have a superior proposal, suggesting instead a return to the Middle Ages with oppression of women and closing off individual entrepreneurial enterprise, education, science and modern finance.
The challenge for America now in learning the lessons from the Al Qaida war includes how to balance humility and pride. America is justly proud of its leadership and its achievements. Attaining a humility that allows the US to listen to different voices is still much harder. It is far too simplistic to see world politics as a battle between good and evil with the west as the good guys and islamists as the bad guys. You have at least to analyse why islamism has been so popular, and examine how the war against it can be waged on a cultural front, looking to win hearts and minds. The Taliban would return to power in Afghanistan if the west left. Mao Tse Tung said the guerrilla swims like a fish in the sea of the people. Osama was protected in Pakistan for five years. They did that because they like him more than they like America. Military attack is not going to change this mindset, but will only entrench it, as we see with the Osama Elvis cult now starting to emerge. Military strategy has to link to cultural strategy, with resources into research and dialogue about what people actually believe.
The West sometimes claims it represents Judeo-Christian civilization. Islam of course is also an Abrahamic faith. There is a lot of research that seeks to understand the Judeo-Christian ethic and culture within a wholistic anthropological framework. It is valuable to look to such research to answer the bewildering question of why the 911 attackers killed themselves to wound America in the most spectacular and central way they could devise. People find such discussion traumatic and even impossible, but I suspect there will be little real progress in the war on terror until dialogue about the motivation of the attackers moves beyond the superficial level into questions of identity and worldview.
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Re: The hunt for Osama
I haven't read your post yet, Robert but I am amused that Bin Laden is now Usama, no longer Osama. Not a biggie, just amusing. He was Osama while Bush was president but now Obama is president. Will he be Ubama someday?
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Re: The hunt for Osama
Johnson:
I disagree somewhat with your view of Osama as an effective enemy, because in point of fact, he and his operatives had a string of successful victories against Western hegemony and its permissive liberalism. Sure, regular citizens and policy experts can argue to what end, what the ultra-rightist stance of Al Qaida means for the Muslim world, but on a tactical level, they changed history and the nature of terrorist/ revolutionary rebellion itself, and someone, somewhere, will dream of doing 9/11 one better, one day, no matter how vigilant we are in the modern intel game.
The American success as a superpower actually does carry a price tag, throughout the course of history, just as the British Empire did before it, and resistance to that power doesn't develop out of nothing, and the fact that the man lasted ten years on Pakistani soil is sufficient evidence in itself that the United States is still tangling with scorpions. Damaged venom carriers? No question, but their hatred is not dead.
_________________ Il mondo sta bene cosi com'e. --Giordano Bruno
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Re: The hunt for Osama
I was pleased when I heard that bin Laden was dead. However, I'm uncomfortable celebrating anyone's death, no matter what they did. A military mission to kill anyone makes me uneasy, for the kinds of reasons Glenn Greenwald describes in this essay: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... index.html
The biggest benefit of bin Laden's death is that political boost it gives President Obama and other Democrats. After all, Republican politicians are a greater threat to the US population that any terrorist group.
Osama bin Laden may be dead but his successors at al-Qa'eda have the same goals. Which makes it as important as ever to try to understand what motivates these jihadists, but the West still isn't doing this.
So says CIA veteran Michael Scheuer. He's one of the most respected Western commentators on Osama bin Laden and he worked within the CIA's bin Laden tracking unit until 2004. And in the spirit of understanding your enemy, he made a close study of bin Laden's public statements over many years.
He now believes that the West is seriously mistaken about what drives al-Qa'eda, and that this has derailed Western policies.
In February of this year, while bin Laden was still alive and at large, Michael Scheuer spoke about where Western thinking is wrong, and the consequences.
Michael Scheuer: I think we've all heard this innumerable times. Americans are hated and attacked by Islamic militants for their freedom and their lifestyle. In more than 800 pages of primary documents, there is no focus whatsoever on how Americans live and think, the focus is squarely on what the United States government does in the Muslim world. To be sure, bin Laden makes it clear that no Muslim state run by him or other Islamists would look like Canada, but neither does he rage against primaries in Iowa, women in the workplace, or after-work pictures of Sam Adams, knowing that almost no Muslim would risk his life to end these practices. This fact is perhaps the most important take-away for ordinary American from bin Laden's papers. Because it both lays bare how consistently they have been lied to by the last three Presidents, and explains why they do not understand the enemy their nation is fighting is motivated by the impact of Washington's foreign policy in the Muslim world.
I use the word 'lie' deliberately, because the data needed to expose the lie is so easily accessible that the US bipartisan political leadership, so many of whom were educated in the Ivy League, have no ground for claiming ignorance. Their knowingly false description of the motivation of America's Islamist enemies may be politically expedient but it most certainly is a lie that will ultimately lead to spiralling defence costs, domestic violence in the United States, severely curtailed civil liberties and endless war with Islam.
The second piece of common wisdom is that bin Laden's mind was shaped by the most radical modern Islamic theorists, men such as the Egyptian Sayyid Qutb. Qutb is a theorist of Jihad that made war look like a Hobsian war of all against all. And he's seen in the West as the principal shaper of bin Laden's thought and actions. But in the corpus of bin Laden's own work, there is not a single quotation from any of Qutb's works, nor does bin Laden ever mention the man's name. That bin Laden accepts some of what Qutb said is clear, as long as Qutb and others like him does not stray from the solipsist view of the Qu'ran and the Suna as the primary documents of Islam, bin Laden concurs with him. But this is really no more than saying that the Qu'ran and the Suna are central to bin Laden and most Muslims. When Qutb diverges from these sources, bin Laden clearly has no use for his recommendations and does not deign to even mention him. In the solifi tradition the Prophet's sayings and traditions, and the Qu'ran are the primary documents and that's where at least solifists look exclusively for guidance and for direction in how to fight a war, how to run a government, how to run your life. And one of the reasons we do not understand the breadth of bin Laden's appeal is because we seek sources of his thought beyond the Qu'ran and Suna, which are immediately recognisable and dearly beloved to Muslims from Malaysia to Morocco to Montreal.
The third piece of common wisdom is that bin Laden is not a very smart fellow, and the Egyptian Ayman al-Zawahiri is really the 'eminence grise'. Western politicians and writers often refer to al-Zawahiri, the former chief of the Egyptian terrorist group and now al-Qa'eda's deputy leader, as bin Laden's brain. An examination of bin Laden's work however, reveals no significant impact by the Egyptian and his thought or his rhetoric. Indeed, such an assessment clearly delineates how far bin Laden has drawn Zawahiri away from his original positions and strategy. Before joining bin Laden for example, al-Zawahiri opposed attacks on the United States, and championed attacks first on Egypt and then on Israel.
As with Qutb, bin Laden never once quotes from al-Zawahiri's massive corpus of work in his own statements, but stands with him as long as the Egyptian sticks to the abovementioned foundational documents of Islam.
A fourth piece of common wisdom is al-Qa'eda is outside the acceptable parameters of Islam, and champions a heretical form of Islam called Takfirism. A Takfiri is one who believes he can decide for himself whether another Muslim is a good Muslim or not a good Muslim, and if he makes the decision negatively the individual is open for being killed or robbed at his property.
In bin Laden's work, there is nothing but a thorough and unequivocal denunciation of Takfiri doctrine. Bin Laden and his lieutenants seldom deign, really, to respond to criticism or accusations from Western states or Arab tyrannies, but when accused of Takfirism, he, al-Zawahiri and other senior al-Qa'eda lieutenants have been quick to rebut the accusations. Bin Laden clearly and accurately foresees oblivion for al-Qa'eda and its allies if the Muslim masses come to believe that they are indeed Takfiris. His concern is evident in that he twice used public statements to implicitly apologise to all Muslims for the Takfiri behaviour of a man named Abu Musaba Zakawi, al-Qa'eda's late leader in Iraq, and to assure Muslims that such actions would not occur again, and to publicly and explicitly order all al-Qa'eda fighters to avoid Takfiri actions.
The fifth piece: bin Laden and al-Qa'eda are running from rock to rock and cave to cave, and so have no central control over their organisation. To test this claim, let's again look at the just-mentioned and now dead, al-Qa'eda chief in Iraq, Abu Musaba Zakawi. As noted, al-Zakawi's murderously Takfiri behaviour in Iraq has been the only potentially fatal strategic threat to al-Qa'eda since 9/11. Indeed, if the US military did not kill him, al-Qa'eda would have found a way to dispose of him, either by promoting him to a position where he could not command fighters, or by killing him themselves. Bin Laden's handling of what can be called the al-Zakawi problem, demonstrated his indirect management style.
Bin Laden did not take on al-Zakawi in public, but assigned that job to al-Zawahiri and another senior figure known only as Atea, to bring al-Zakawi back in al-Qaeda's non-Takfiri reservation. Al-Zawahiri did so in a measured but clearly pointed manner. He stressed that al-Qaeda's respect for al-Zakawi's success in killing Americans and their allies was great, but told al-Zakawi that he was part of a bigger whole that had an international agenda which was being damaged by his actions, especially by televised beheadings, and the bombing of mosques and shrines.
When al-Zakawi took minimal remedial action, Atea followed with a much harsher letter. It opens by saluting al-Zakawi's lethal accomplishments against US-led forces, but then harshly chastises him for ignoring the fact that he is subordinate to bin Laden and other al-Qa'eda leaders, demanding that his actions must complement, not retard, al-Qa'eda's international goals, and pledging to him that he would be removed from commanding al-Qa'eda in Iraq if he did not quickly fall into line behind the directions of al-Qa'eda's senior leadership.
The content of both letters, as well as al-Qa'eda's ongoing rebound in Iraq ought to give pause to the authors who have identified al-Qa'eda as either a non-centralised organisation, now isolated from independent affiliates, or as a doctrinally Takfiri organisation. These authors are largely mistaken, and have skewed the now losing US military's understanding of its Islamist enemies, as well as the doctrine our military has shaped to defeat them.
The sixth, that al-Qa'eda has failed. After reviewing bin Laden's words it is irrefutably clear that he has always intended al-Qa'eda's primary role to be that of inciting and instigating Muslims to drive America from the Muslim world, to attack Israel, and to overthrow Arab tyrannies, and not, as a military machine, meant to defeat Islam's enemies by itself, or in alliance with a few other groups. Thus the whole concept hawked by self-serving Western politicians that they have made Western populations safer because they have not been attacked since 9/11, reflects not only wishful thinking, but a singular ignorance of al-Qa'eda's goals and the expanding power of its media operations.
At 9/11 for example, al-Qa'eda's main planning, training and operational platform was in Afghanistan. As the second month of 2011 ends, the group retains part of that platform, and has added a large section of Pakistan and sections of Yemen, Iraq, Somalia, and North Africa. In addition, al-Qa'eda's example of hurting the United States and then not only surviving, but growing in numbers and expanding geographically, has been an inspiration for continuing or increased organisational activity and/or violence by Islamist fighters in the north Caucasus, in Southern Thailand, in Europe, across the Far East in Kashmir, the Arabian Peninsula, India, Nigeria and other places in Africa, and in the United States. In short, al-Qa'eda not only retains substantial military capabilities for a group of its limited size, but it has developed an outsized media and geographical reach. In terms of inspiration and instigation capabilities, al-Qa'eda is today exactly what bin Laden intended it to be: an unqualified success in inspiring Muslims to wage jihad against their governments and Western powers across the Islamic world.
Seventh and finally: Muslim world polling shows that bin Laden is no longer popular and that al-Qa'eda is irrelevant. Not surprisingly, many non-Muslim authors place high value on the results of polling by reputable Western firms in the Muslim world. And some of it is indeed very valuable. But the polls' celebrity measuring and personality-based questions, such as 'Do you approve of Osama bin Laden?' or 'Would you want to live under a bin Laden government?' are virtually worthless. The key polling questions are the ones that mesh with what bin Laden identifies as the motivation for jihad, and with what he wants to achieve. Questions such as, 'What do you think of US foreign policy?' 'Do you want to be governed with a large measure of Sharia law?' and 'Do you believe that your current government is un-Islamic, has failed and/or is oppressive?' elicit the most informing responses. Polling shows virtual unanimous hatred among Muslims for the impact of US foreign policy, and for current Muslim governments, and a large majority favouring a substantial measure of Sharia law in their governance in the future. These results moreover, are nearly the same among key cohorts, young and old, male and female and militant and moderate. As long as these results remain consistently high, as they have for a decade, bin Laden is on the right track for his own purposes.
Kathy Gollan: That was CIA veteran and biographer of Osama bin Laden, Michael Scheuer, speaking at the Commonwealth Club in February of this year.
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