The Case for God

Robert Tulip · Mon May 09, 2011 3:43 pm

Stuart Mason wrote:

If a confused passer-by can chime in for a second, what, exactly, is Karen Armstrong's God? The definitions I've found for apophatic are very obscure and border on cryptic. It sort of sounds like it's saying apophatic means whatever type of possible God is left over after establishing what God does not do. Almost like the so-called "God of the gaps". But Armstrong's God is being said not to be an entity, period, so here's what throws me off:


	Robert Tulip wrote: I've just finished reading Myth and Symbol in Ancient Egypt by RT Rundle Clark. He makes the excellent point that the Egyptians viewed their gods as forces of nature, not as entities.

How is "entity" being defined here? Because while the Egyptians deities were forces of nature, they were certainly regarded as living entities. Is "entity" being used here to just mean a being that's anthropomorphic, or is Armstrong saying her God isn't a real, consciousness being at all but just an idea?

Stuart, thanks. I am using entity here to mean a supernatural anthropomorphic being with personal identity. I will look again at The Case for God regarding how Armstrong might respond on the "just an idea" point. My own view is that if we consider God as embedded in the structure of the cosmos, as the natural basis for the goal of human flourishing, then a natural theology is possible that sees purpose and meaning in the universe and is far from arbitrary.

if you consider how the ancient Greeks understood Poseidon, the God of the Sea, in large part they originally saw the God as actually being the sea, not as a supernatural entity separate from nature. Over time, the idea of Poseidon as a supernatural being did emerge, but the source was the identification with nature. Similiarly in Egypt, Ra is the Sun. This does not mean there is imagined to be a real personal entity different from the sun, but that if we read Egyptian texts, when we see Ra, we think Sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology says


	Quote: Apophatic theology (from Greek ἀπόφασις from ἀπόφημι - apophēmi, "to deny")—also known as Negative theology or Via Negativa (Latin for "Negative Way")—is a theology that attempts to describe God, the Divine Good, by negation, to speak only in terms of what may not be said about the perfect goodness that is God.[1] It stands in contrast with Cataphatic theology. In brief, negative theology is an attempt to achieve unity with the Divine Good through discernment, gaining knowledge of what God is not (apophasis), rather than by describing what God is. The apophatic tradition is often, though not always, allied with the approach of mysticism, which focuses on a spontaneous or cultivated individual experience of the divine reality beyond the realm of ordinary perception, an experience often unmediated by the structures of traditional organized religion or the conditioned role playing and learned defensive behavior of the outer man.

stahrwe · Mon May 09, 2011 8:07 pm

Frank 013 wrote:


	Quote: Stahrwe Well, you should try to be less bigoted as a group.

Man I hate being distracted… I hope your enjoying this stahrwe… but you know what I meant.

yes, I did.


	Quote: Stahrwe Those Christians live in those countries or are Missionaries there helping as well as preaching, and sometimes not


	frank013 wrote: I never said it was right, however if you annoy people who do not want you around than you have no gripe when they smack you down for bothering them… If they do not want your help or are not willing to accept the cost of your help (even if it simply means listening to your preaching) then you should leave… staying around is unwise and asking for trouble.

Not sure what exactly that means.


	Quote: stahrwe He isn't, we are.

It doesn’t look that way to me.


	Quote: Stahrwe You Romulan.


	frank013 wrote: Romulans are cool

And fun.

Dawn · Mon May 09, 2011 11:49 pm


	Frank 013 wrote: In short, from a face value reading your position seem like a stretch… and if that is your case then the text is very dated (flawed) because for the vast majority of Christians worldwide (and for most of its history) accepting Jesus has been the easy way out. Later

I was passing by tonight and cannot let this pass. I can see why you might believe this if you're only aware of Western, particularly N.American, culture, but it is grossly in error when considering Christianity worldwide.


	Quote: Though it is not widely known, the 20th century produced more Christian martyrs than all of the preceding 19 centuries combined.

Even spending a little time at the following websites may be an eye-opener for you. This is well-established fact, albeit not often highlighted in the press.

http://www.persecution.net/pnp.htm
http://www.opendoors.org/

Things are not always as they seem when you live in a free, comfortable, prosperous society...

stahrwe · Tue May 10, 2011 7:38 am


	Randall R. Young wrote: Perhaps if Christians like you did a little less persecuting of your own, you might find these other societies somewhat more welcoming. I have a bumper sticker on my car that says, "Who Would Jesus Bomb?" If I happened to live in Pakistan, I might be inclined to consider those occasional cruise missiles to be a form of persecution. If I lived in Iraq, I might have thought George Bush's "crusade" had a bit of the flavor of a persecution.

We aren't using cruise missles in Pakistan we are using drones to take out taliban and al quida leaders. If you lived in Iraq under Saddam you would most likely be celebrating that he is gone. The concept of 'crusade' is not applicable as they were intended to drive the Muslims from the Holy Land, which does not include Iraq.

Frank 013 · Tue May 10, 2011 8:24 am

Quote:


	Quote: frank013 wrote: I never said it was right, however if you annoy people who do not want you around than you have no gripe when they smack you down for bothering them… If they do not want your help or are not willing to accept the cost of your help (even if it simply means listening to your preaching) then you should leave… staying around is unwise and asking for trouble.

stahrwe
Not sure what exactly that means.

It simply means that if Christians go to places where they are already being persecuted or where their beliefs and preaching are unwanted either by the populace at large or the government then they will be persecuted.

When missionaries knowingly walking into that type of environment and begin to gain converts it creates pointless conflict and it skews the numbers. They might be more welcome if the Christian track record of persecution were not so bad as Randall pointed out.

I see it like this… you will get little sympathy when you whine and complain about the trouble you bring on yourself.


	Quote: Dawn I was passing by tonight and cannot let this pass. I can see why you might believe this if you're only aware of Western, particularly N.American, culture, but it is grossly in error when considering Christianity worldwide.

Really? There are 2.1 billion Christians worldwide… do you have any idea how many individual acts of persecution you would have to show me before you even reached 1%. I think you might be over exaggerating the problem due to your emotional connection. The acts are terrible and unjust but that does not mean that they affect the hundreds of millions of Christians necessary for it to be considered even a low percent of their overall population, and it certainly is not the majority.

Furthermore in nearly every area that persecutes Christians they also persecute atheists… and there are some that persecute atheists that do not generally persecute Christians.


	Quote: In Iran, atheists do not have any recognized legal status, and must declare that they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish or Zoroastrian, in order to claim some legal rights, including applying for entrance to university, or becoming a lawyer. Similarly, Jordan requires atheists to associate themselves with a recognized religion for official identification purposes, and atheists in Indonesia experience official discrimination in the context of registration of births and marriages, and the issuance of identity cards. In Egypt, intellectuals suspected of holding atheistic beliefs have been prosecuted by judicial and religious authorities. Novelist Alaa Hamad was convicted of publishing a book that contained atheistic ideas and apostasy that were considered to threaten national unity and social peace. Compulsory religious instruction in Turkish schools is also considered discriminatory towards atheists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimina ... t_atheists

And for the record I have traveled to a great many countries including Islamic countries… Germany, Guatemala, Honduras, Belize, Canada, Mexico, Saudi, Iraq and Australia. The only country I saw any intolerance towards Christians was Saudi… and they have legal rights there… just not much local support, at least not in 1992… atheists were even less accepted.

and yes Romulans are fun!

Later

stahrwe · Tue May 10, 2011 9:24 am

Frank 013 wrote:

Quote:


	Quote: frank013 wrote: I never said it was right, however if you annoy people who do not want you around than you have no gripe when they smack you down for bothering them… If they do not want your help or are not willing to accept the cost of your help (even if it simply means listening to your preaching) then you should leave… staying around is unwise and asking for trouble.

stahrwe
Not sure what exactly that means.

It simply means that if Christians go to places where they are already being persecuted or where their beliefs and preaching are unwanted either by the populace at large or the government then they will be persecuted.

When missionaries knowingly walking into that type of environment and begin to gain converts it creates pointless conflict and it skews the numbers. They might be more welcome if the Christian track record of persecution were not so bad as Randall pointed out.

I see it like this… you will get little sympathy when you whine and complain about the trouble you bring on yourself.


	Quote: Dawn I was passing by tonight and cannot let this pass. I can see why you might believe this if you're only aware of Western, particularly N.American, culture, but it is grossly in error when considering Christianity worldwide.

Really? There are 2.1 billion Christians worldwide… do you have any idea how many individual acts of persecution you would have to show me before you even reached 1%. I think you might be over exaggerating the problem due to your emotional connection. The acts are terrible and unjust but that does not mean that they affect the hundreds of millions of Christians necessary for it to be considered even a low percent of their overall population, and it certainly is not the majority.

Furthermore in nearly every area that persecutes Christians they also persecute atheists… and there are some that persecute atheists that do not generally persecute Christians.


	Quote: In Iran, atheists do not have any recognized legal status, and must declare that they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish or Zoroastrian, in order to claim some legal rights, including applying for entrance to university, or becoming a lawyer. Similarly, Jordan requires atheists to associate themselves with a recognized religion for official identification purposes, and atheists in Indonesia experience official discrimination in the context of registration of births and marriages, and the issuance of identity cards. In Egypt, intellectuals suspected of holding atheistic beliefs have been prosecuted by judicial and religious authorities. Novelist Alaa Hamad was convicted of publishing a book that contained atheistic ideas and apostasy that were considered to threaten national unity and social peace. Compulsory religious instruction in Turkish schools is also considered discriminatory towards atheists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimina ... t_atheists

And for the record I have traveled to a great many countries including Islamic countries… Germany, Guatemala, Honduras, Belize, Canada, Mexico, Saudi, Iraq and Australia. The only country I saw any intolerance towards Christians was Saudi… and they have legal rights there… just not much local support, at least not in 1992… atheists were even less accepted.

and yes Romulans are fun!

Later

Most of the persecution we 'whine' about is directed toward citizens of the country where the persecution is taking place. We have a special category of missionaries we refer to as New Frontier missionaries as they go to places where knowledge of their presence could be harmful to people they associate with there. The missionaries know the risks and accept them.

With respect to Iran, the fact that they persecute Atheists is not related to how Athiests are treated in the US. The whole idea of 'coming out' as an atheist is pretty laughable.

Christians in the early church were considered to be atheists by the Romans.

Romulans do it with a cloaking device.

Frank 013 · Tue May 10, 2011 9:52 am


	Quote: Stahrwe We aren't using cruise missiles in Pakistan we are using drones to take out Taliban and Al-quida leaders. If you lived in Iraq under Saddam you would most likely be celebrating that he is gone. The concept of 'crusade' is not applicable as they were intended to drive the Muslims from the Holy Land, which does not include Iraq.

You have to look at it from their point of view… our simple presence is offensive to them… When I was in Saudi, Americans simply walking on Saudi soil was offensive to many of them… so hitting them with missiles (from a drone or otherwise) is murder when sent from an American (Christian, atheist or Jewish it makes no difference, we are all infidels and beneath them) for us to kill any Muslim (villainous or not) often times offends them even further… a great many of them do not like us, our values or our freedoms… and they certainly do not like us meddling in their culture, and that includes preaching an “inferior” religion.

Furthermore, many of their religious leaders do promote our conflict as a fight of Muslim vs. Christians, despite our government’s stance and they are widely believed… so while they may not view our presence as persecution, many do see it as an attack… and they retaliate in kind when and where they can.


	Quote: Stahrwe Most of the persecution we 'whine' about is directed toward citizens of the country where the persecution is taking place. We have a special category of missionaries we refer to as New Frontier missionaries as they go to places where knowledge of their presence could be harmful to people they associate with there. The missionaries know the risks and accept them.

Right… and they are still (from what you have shown me) the tiniest fraction of Christians worldwide.


	Quote: stahrwe With respect to Iran, the fact that they persecute Atheists is not related to how Atheists are treated in the US. The whole idea of 'coming out' as an atheist is pretty laughable.

Then you must be unaware of the open abuse we face regularly… I personally have been openly shunned, had my car vandalized, been verbally abused and threatened simply because some people found out that I do not believe in a god. Hell it’s probable that my first marriage failed largely because my mother in law could not handle the fact that I did not believe. That holds true of most of the other atheists I know as well… and worldwide we have it as bad as you do if not worse.


	Quote: stahrwe Christians in the early church were considered to be atheists by the Romans.

That’s true… at least in the beginning… but then you guys turned the table didn’t you?

Later

stahrwe · Tue May 10, 2011 11:56 am

Frank 013 wrote:


	Quote: Stahrwe We aren't using cruise missiles in Pakistan we are using drones to take out Taliban and Al-quida leaders. If you lived in Iraq under Saddam you would most likely be celebrating that he is gone. The concept of 'crusade' is not applicable as they were intended to drive the Muslims from the Holy Land, which does not include Iraq.

You have to look at it from their point of view… our simple presence is offensive to them… When I was in Saudi, Americans simply walking on Saudi soil was offensive to many of them… so hitting them with missiles (from a drone or otherwise) is murder when sent from an American (Christian, atheist or Jewish it makes no difference, we are all infidels and beneath them) for us to kill any Muslim (villainous or not) often times offends them even further… a great many of them do not like us, our values or our freedoms… and they certainly do not like us meddling in their culture, and that includes preaching an “inferior” religion.

Furthermore, many of their religious leaders do promote our conflict as a fight of Muslim vs. Christians, despite our government’s stance and they are widely believed… so while they may not view our presence as persecution, many do see it as an attack… and they retaliate in kind when and where they can.

As long as we are a secular nation and have been attacked, the offending parties are subject to capture or destruction by us. If they are on foreign soil the solution is pretty simple; the soverign state should apprehend them and turn them over to us. If they refuse, we have the right, under UN resolutions 1269, 1368, 1373, and others to defend ourselves without restrictions.


	Quote: Stahrwe Most of the persecution we 'whine' about is directed toward citizens of the country where the persecution is taking place. We have a special category of missionaries we refer to as New Frontier missionaries as they go to places where knowledge of their presence could be harmful to people they associate with there. The missionaries know the risks and accept them.


	frank013 wrote: Right… and they are still (from what you have shown me) the tiniest fraction of Christians worldwide.

Can you cite an example during the past year where an atheist was raped for being an atheist, or scalded to death for being an atheist, or even shot in the head for being an atheist?

I googled, persecution of atheists and got a few hits including an article by Austin Cline, I suspect you have heard of him. His complaints were similar to yours. I hate to characterize them as minor but compared with what you get when you google, persecution of Christians they really aren't in the same league. Also, Austin is lamenting his treatment after participating in something called the blasphemy challenge. Understand, having property damaged or destroyed, or calling someone a name, (unless it is You Romulan) is not justified but I wonder if some deliberate 'baiting' isn't happening with him. Antagonize a Christian enough for them to lose their temper and then cite their behavior as persecution. In the case of the Christians being persecuted, they are just living their lives, trying not to be noticed and they are ... well, did you see the Rambo movie set in Burma?

godlessgirl.com/2010/03/the-persecution ... -atheists/

I do like you Frank013, but I find your rationale that the examples I cited, "are still the tiniest fration of Christians worldwide," to be disgusting, and I don't believe you mean it the way it comes across.


	Quote: stahrwe With respect to Iran, the fact that they persecute Atheists is not related to how Atheists are treated in the US. The whole idea of 'coming out' as an atheist is pretty laughable.


	frank013 wrote: Then you must be unaware of the open abuse we face regularly… I personally have been openly shunned, had my car vandalized, been verbally abused and threatened simply because some people found out that I do not believe in a god. Hell it’s probable that my first marriage failed largely because my mother in law could not handle the fact that I did not believe. That holds true of most of the other atheists I know as well… and worldwide we have it as bad as you do if not worse.

I can't speak to your personal experiences although there is a difference between saying you are an atheist, and attempting to offend Christians. By that I mean baiting like; crucifix in pee, dung on Madonna paintings, Sam Harris quotes. That type of activity still does not justify the problems you cited above but they do not rise to the level Christians regularly experience


	Quote: stahrwe Christians in the early church were considered to be atheists by the Romans.


	frank013 wrote: That’s true… at least in the beginning… but then you guys turned the table didn’t you?

No, something even more amazing, we fundamentally changed the world!

Dawn · Tue May 10, 2011 12:37 pm

Frank, I begin to see where you're coming from. I'm sorry to hear what you have experienced at the hands/mouths of 'Christians'. No wonder you hold such animosity and suspicion toward them. These are things Jesus does not sanction. I trust there are many true followers of Him that you will yet run into (not literally please!

I was not referring to expatriate missionaries or Christians when I was talking about the persecution worldwide. You may surely visit a country and not observe it. You were not likely hanging out with believers in any of these countries... For instance, I know there is actual persecution in parts of Mexico, in Chiapas for example. We lived and worked in the deep south of Mexico for some years and heard more of the 'inside' stories (no we weren't persecuted; nor did we live in Chiapas). This is real stuff--whether in Muslim countries; Hindu dominated countries, staunch Catholic countries too, or even animistic/voodoo belief areas...

We are fortunate to have freedom of belief. This is not as common as we might think. It also occurs to me that your experience is skewed by living in the South (is that right?) where Christianity is so strong as to be institutionalized and held in common by most. This is not true in the Northwest of the US or in the west of Canada. A very small percent go to church and Bible literacy is very low. It's not 'popular' to be a Christian here, and non-Christians are definitely not marginalized. (Maybe you should move?! We could swap places

Thanks for the dialogue.

Frank 013 · Tue May 10, 2011 12:50 pm


	Quote: Stahrwe As long as we are a secular nation and have been attacked, the offending parties are subject to capture or destruction by us. If they are on foreign soil the solution is pretty simple; the soverign state should apprehend them and turn them over to us. If they refuse, we have the right, under UN resolutions 1269, 1368, 1373, and others to defend ourselves without restrictions.

I do not disagree… however a great many Muslims do.


	Quote: Stahrwe Can you cite an example during the past year where an atheist was raped for being an atheist, or scalded to death for being an atheist, or even shot in the head for being an atheist?

No but there are plenty of examples of religious people killing others who disagree with their brand of belief… abortion doctors come to mind immediately... people like Dawkins get death threats every day.


	Quote: stahrwe I googled, persecution of atheists and got a few hits including an article by Austin Cline, I suspect you have heard of him. His complaints were similar to yours. I hate to characterize them as minor but compared with what you get when you google, persecution of Christians they really aren't in the same league.

I never said that they were in the same league… however I do think that the per-capita ratio of atheist persecution is higher than that of Christians… simply because our numbers are so low… it may not be as bad… especially here in the states… were just shunned as second class citizens for the most part… In less civilized countries I suspect atheists wisely stay quiet about their doubts.


	Quote: Stahrwe Also, Austin is lamenting his treatment after participating in something called the blasphemy challenge. Understand, having property damaged or destroyed, or calling someone a name, (unless it is You Romulan) is not justified but I wonder if some deliberate 'baiting' isn't happening with him.

I suspect that there is some “baiting” with him… however I view the Christian missionaries preaching as the same thing in countries where they are the minority and largely not wanted.


	Quote: Stahrwe Antagonize a Christian enough for them to lose their temper and then cite their behavior as persecution.

That is exactly what I am talking about… Christian preaching simply is not wanted in many places around the world… so simply being there is antagonizeing them enough for them to lose their temper, but you still feel free to cite their behavior as persecution.

To you it is persecution… to many of them it is preserving a superior culture.


	Quote: Stahrwe I can't speak to your personal experiences although there is a difference between saying you are an atheist, and attempting to offend Christians. By that I mean baiting like; crucifix in pee, dung on Madonna paintings, Sam Harris quotes. That type of activity still does not justify the problems you cited above but they do not rise to the level Christians regularly experience.

I think you might be using the word regularly here beyond what is reasonable… for Christians to regularly experience a problem it would have to be a widespread issue common to most if not all members, more than 50% at least (in my opinion) I have yet to see more than a fraction of a present accounted for… in contrast I think nearly all atheists that are open about their lack of belief have seen at least some trouble from it…

You did not ask this... but my current girlfriend initially had a problem with my atheism… not because of me, but because her church was spreading lies about what atheism is… devil worshipers and witches is what they called us… and that is not uncommon… her religious friends have now ousted her for her association with me.

Atheists are hated and demonized by the church… because we represent the fact that people can be good in the absence of god fear… and that scares them because according to them that should not exist.


	Quote: Stahrwe No, something even more amazing, we fundamentally changed the world!

Yea, too bad you had to drag us through the Dark Ages to do it… but at least that proved to most people that the Bible should not be taken literally… and not to put too much trust in the church.

Go Romulans!!!

Frank 013 · Tue May 10, 2011 1:10 pm


	Quote: Dawn Frank, I begin to see where you're coming from. I'm sorry to hear what you have experienced at the hands/mouths of 'Christians'. No wonder you hold such animosity and suspicion toward them. These are things Jesus does not sanction. I trust there are many true followers of Him that you will yet run into (not literally please!)

In my experience if a religious person gets to know me (accept me) before they know my position, they are generally unwilling to shun me after the fact… and I try not to literally run into people as a general rule... painful.


	Quote: Dawn I was not referring to expatriate missionaries or Christians when I was talking about the persecution worldwide. You may surely visit a country and not observe it. You were not likely hanging out with believers in any of these countries...

Ok… and true, I was not hanging with the Christian missionaries.


	Quote: Dawn For instance, I know there is actual persecution in parts of Mexico, in Chiapas for example. We lived and worked in the deep south of Mexico for some years and heard more of the 'inside' stories (no we weren't persecuted; nor did we live in Chiapas). This is real stuff--whether in Muslim countries; Hindu dominated countries, staunch Catholic countries too, or even animistic/voodoo belief areas...

But is this common to the majority of Christians, or is being a Christian more of a mainstream belief for the vast majority who believe?


	Quote: Dawn We are fortunate to have freedom of belief. This is not as common as we might think.

Too true... I have seen it first hand.


	Quote: Dawn It also occurs to me that your experience is skewed by living in the South (is that right?) where Christianity is so strong as to be institutionalized and held in common by most.

I currently live in Florida… it was worse in rural New York


	Quote: Dawn This is not true in the Northwest of the US or in the west of Canada. A very small percent go to church and Bible literacy is very low. It's not 'popular' to be a Christian here, and non-Christians are definitely not marginalized. (Maybe you should move?! We could swap places

Sorry, my girlfriend cannot move and I love her so…


	Quote: Dawn Thanks for the dialogue.

Diddo

Stuart Mason · Tue May 10, 2011 1:49 pm


	Robert Tulip wrote: Stuart, thanks. I am using entity here to mean a supernatural anthropomorphic being with personal identity. I will look again at The Case for God regarding how Armstrong might respond on the "just an idea" point. My own view is that if we consider God as embedded in the structure of the cosmos, as the natural basis for the goal of human flourishing, then a natural theology is possible that sees purpose and meaning in the universe and is far from arbitrary.

Thanks for the Wiki link. That explained it much better. I do understand the naturalistic view, though to me personally, unless one believes the ultimate or fundamental force of the universe to be sentient, it seems off to refer to it as "God".

stahrwe · Tue May 10, 2011 2:08 pm

Frank013 and Dawn, a couple of things.

#1) Most churches discourage believers from dating unbelievers as it tends to cause conflict, on the other hand, banning someone for doing so is very unusual unless your girlfriend is from what is commonly called an Independent Baptist church. They tend to be very 'dogmatic'. From what you said about what they think of atheists I suspect that is the kind of church she is attending. It is odd thought that they would confuse atheism with devil worship unless you egged them on a bit, something I might have been tempted to do at one time in my life.

#2) Florida, at least most of it is not really a southern state. There are some sections which are rather religious but it not something ordinarily associated with other states in the "Bible Belt".

#3) I have not revealed this before, but one of the reasons I have participated in BT and hung around is to find out what Atheists are really like. Frank013, do you think you 'represent'?

Robert Tulip · Tue May 10, 2011 2:41 pm

Stuart Mason wrote:


	Robert Tulip wrote: Stuart, thanks. I am using entity here to mean a supernatural anthropomorphic being with personal identity. I will look again at The Case for God regarding how Armstrong might respond on the "just an idea" point. My own view is that if we consider God as embedded in the structure of the cosmos, as the natural basis for the goal of human flourishing, then a natural theology is possible that sees purpose and meaning in the universe and is far from arbitrary.

Thanks for the Wiki link. That explained it much better. I do understand the naturalistic view, though to me personally, unless one believes the ultimate or fundamental force of the universe to be sentient, it seems off to refer to it as "God".

Hi Stuart, I admit I do not regard the universe as sentient, but I would say (in apophatic fashion) that God is not sentient. Sentience is a quality of living entities, and God is not a living entity. Rather, I would say God is the inherent logic of the universe, so contains reason and rationality and sentience. All matter exhibits cyclic structures, from the atomic level up to the daily spin of the earth and the rotation of the galaxy. These cyclic patterns exhibit the inherent logic of the universe. Understanding how human life fits within natural patterns is the key to understanding universal logic, equated to God. It is a complex question, because our fit within nature is not just a matter of physiology but extends to the psychological realm of the origin of values such as love, justice and the good. If these values have a natural evolutionary origin, it helps to see how traditional depictions of God also have a natural origin. We can therefore say God is revealed as present in human sentience, whenever our ideas reflect reality.

As I mentioned in the opening post, to some extent I draw from the German existentialist philosopher Martin Heidegger in my interpretation of these matters. Heidegger proposed a natural trinity, with nature, logic and truth relating to each other in a similar way as the Christian Father, Son and Spirit. Heidegger sees logic as the response to an original connecting connectedness of nature, termed logos in Greek. The fact that nature is abundantly connected does not mean nature is sentient, but it does open the path to asking how humanity relates to nature through logic and truth, how this relation discloses the meaning of being as care, and how it invites a faith in reality that is a natural analogy to the supernatural tradition of faith in Christian myth.

Frank 013 · Tue May 10, 2011 2:46 pm


	Quote: Stahrwe #1) Most churches discourage believers from dating unbelievers as it tends to cause conflict, on the other hand, banning someone for doing so is very unusual unless your girlfriend is from what is commonly called an Independent Baptist church. They tend to be very 'dogmatic'. From what you said about what they think of atheists I suspect that is the kind of church she is attending. It is odd thought that they would confuse atheism with devil worship unless you egged them on a bit, something I might have been tempted to do at one time in my life.

I have never met any of the members of her church… but let me clarify a bit, it was not an official dismissal… her church friends simply told her that they did not approve… and they hounded her until she felt uncomfortable and left.


	Quote: stahrwe #2) Florida, at least most of it is not really a southern state. There are some sections which are rather religious but it not something ordinarily associated with other states in the "Bible Belt".

That is exactly true… especially the Tampa area where I live… now up near Jacksonville where my mom lives… that is a different story… very religious… I doubt that I would survive long out there.


	Quote: stahrwe #3) I have not revealed this before, but one of the reasons I have participated in BT and hung around is to find out what Atheists are really like. Frank013, do you think you 'represent'?

I suppose so… but it’s hard to say. I would say that I am typical of the atheists that I associate with.

Later

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