Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3893 Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 689 Thanked: 562 times in 454 posts
Gender: Country:
The Bible's Buried Secrets
This is a "Nova" show that aired last night in my area. It's available for watching online, too. It brought together three main strands: the origins of the ancient Israelites, the evolution of their belief in the one God, and the creation of the Bible. The show took the common-sense approach that as we come forward in time, the historical basis for the biblical chronology increases. For the earliest events, before the reign of King David, no historical corroboration exists. For David and Solomon heading a powerful united kingdom, the evidence was presented as mixed. Some believe that buildings discovered within the oldest part of Jerusalem are the fortress of David's city.
One speaker observed that there is no word for "history" in the Bible, and that history as we understand it wasn't what the Jewish writers of the Bible were up to. They were attempting to provide a sustaining story for a distinct people that had gradually emerged from a collapsed Canaanite kingdom. The historical nugget of truth in the Exodus story is that a smallish group of Canaanite slaves escaped from Egypt, picked up the god YHWH from another group on their way back home, and then inspired the rest of this Canaanite underclass with their tale of freedom under YHWH's protection. There was never a conquering of Canaan from an outside army of Israelites. The Israelites were there all the time.
Monotheism doesn't become established in Israel until after the return from the Babylonian exile in the 6th century. The Bible does talk about Israelite lapses into polytheism ever since the time of the legendary Abraham, but archaeology shows that polytheistic worship was constant by Israelites until it finally was purged by the exiled Jews in Babylon.
Reading the Bible as history to the letter is an aberration of fairly recent times. No doubt the Jews considered their Bible scribes to be inspired by Yahweh, but they understood inspiration differently from modern literalists. It didn't bother them that creation could be said to have happened in two ways, or that the flood story is actually a combination of two accounts.
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 3224 Location: Canberra
Thanks: 820 Thanked: 817 times in 614 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
Thanks DWill, unfortunately the video is not available for viewing in Australia, but it sounds interesting.
I confess, since reading Stephen Oppenheimer's account of tracking human DNA from Africa, I prefer to think that the Exodus is actually a very deep racial memory of the actual exodus from Djibouti to Yemen across the mouth of the Red Sea whereby homo sapien expanded from Africa to the rest of the world 80,000 years ago. And as for the flood, sea levels rose by about 150 metres from the last glacial maximum 20,000 years ago to the dawn of the Holocene 10,000 years ago, and the flooding of all coastal districts over that long period could well have been distorted into the Biblical account.
I know this is pure speculation, but at least it is possible, unlike the Bible myths.
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 4141 Location: Florida
Thanks: 121 Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
I don't know what is more amazing; the stuff that makes it onto TV, or the people who buy into it.
The scenario you relate seems to parallel, to a large degree the premises we encountered in TEoG. I confess that I did not watch the show and don't intend to - I've seen and heard it before and it falls apart on two fronts.
First of all, "One speaker observed that there is no word for history in the Bible..."[see DWill post above.]
His statement indicts him for his ignorance, and you and the other BT members would not be excited by this error if you had a basic knowledge of the Bible.
What about 1st and 2nd Chronicles? What is a Chronicle?
Quote:
Generally a chronicle (Latin: chronica, from Greek χρονικά, from χρόνος, chronos, "time") is a historical account of facts and events ranged in chronological order, as in a time line. Typically, equal weight is given for historically important events and local events, the purpose being the recording of events that occurred, seen from the perspective of the chronicler. This is in contrast to a narrative or history, which sets selected events in a meaningful interpretive context and excludes those the author does not see as important
[Originally 1st and Second Chronicles were one book in what we call the OT.] As noted, in Hebrew it [was] called Divrei Hayyamim (also Dibh’re Hayyamim), meaning “the matters [of] the days,” based on “sefer divrei ha-yamim le-malkhei Yehudah” as well as “sefer divrei ha-yammim lemalkhei Israel,” meaning “book of the days of the kings of Judah” and “book of the days of the kings of Israel,” respectively.
Seems like Chronicles was a history to me. Even if wasn't called that exact word, that is what it was intended to be, as was, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1st Samuel, 2nd Samuel, 1st Kings, 2nd Kings, 1st Chronicles, 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther.
The first 5 books of the Bible are referred to as the Books of the Law. The next 12 books of the Bible are referred to as the Books of History.
The books contain geneaologies, accounts of battles and encounters with people...in short histories.
Second, it is amazing that these 'scholars' know better what the reason for the writing of the Bible was than the authors. Try reading the Bible instead of listening to the hacks and you will learn something instead of wasting the time you spent wating NOVA.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
The following user would like to thank stahrwe for this post: Dawn
Joined: Oct 2004 Posts: 3724 Images: 3 Location: California Highscores:1 Thanks: 349 Thanked: 749 times in 564 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
Quote:
I don't know what is more amazing; the stuff that makes it onto TV, or the people who buy into it.
Like thinking all humans are born unpure or sinful, that there is a place of eternal torture where we're sent to if we're bad, that at one point in the past every human on Earth was purely evil, that asses talked and faith makes you immune to poison, that all scientists are perpetrating a worldwide conspiracy greater than any ever known, that logic doesn't apply to epistemology.
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 4141 Location: Florida
Thanks: 121 Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
Interbane wrote:
Like thinking all humans are born unpure or sinful, that there is a place of eternal torture where we're sent to if we're bad, that at one point in the past every human on Earth was purely evil, that asses talked and faith makes you immune to poison, that all scientists are perpetrating a worldwide conspiracy greater than any ever known, that logic doesn't apply to epistemology.
Yes, the stupid things people buy into.
The punishment you allude to is not predicated on misbehavior but your claim that it is represents an addition to your list-People who criticize things they have no knowledge of. The other points in you supposed rebuttal are all things which are recorded in a Book which has been the source of inspiriation and encouragement for thousands of years. You may question the stories but you can't disprove them. On the otherhand, when a major television broadcast purports to examine the Bible and fails in something as elementary as not understanding that the Bible was written, in part as a history, I must point that out. That the error was perpetuated in this discussion underscores my constant complaint that most of the participants on BT do not have even a basic understanding of the Bible. That they do not and do not want to is there choice, but don't get upset when you make silly errors about the Bible and they are pointed out. That is inevitable. I suppose that it is also inevitable that an unrelated jab at the Bible will result from the frustation of the error being pointed out.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
The following user would like to thank stahrwe for this post: Dawn
Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 468 Images: 0 Highscores:3 Thanks: 25 Thanked: 29 times in 28 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
stahrwe wrote:
I don't know what is more amazing; the stuff that makes it onto TV, or the people who buy into it.
The scenario you relate seems to parallel, to a large degree the premises we encountered in TEoG. I confess that I did not watch the show and don't intend to - I've seen and heard it before and it falls apart on two fronts.
First of all, "One speaker observed that there is no word for history in the Bible..."[see DWill post above.]
His statement indicts him for his ignorance, and you and the other BT members would not be excited by this error if you had a basic knowledge of the Bible.
What about 1st and 2nd Chronicles? What is a Chronicle?
Quote:
Generally a chronicle (Latin: chronica, from Greek χρονικά, from χρόνος, chronos, "time") is a historical account of facts and events ranged in chronological order, as in a time line. Typically, equal weight is given for historically important events and local events, the purpose being the recording of events that occurred, seen from the perspective of the chronicler. This is in contrast to a narrative or history, which sets selected events in a meaningful interpretive context and excludes those the author does not see as important
[Originally 1st and Second Chronicles were one book in what we call the OT.] As noted, in Hebrew it [was] called Divrei Hayyamim (also Dibh’re Hayyamim), meaning “the matters [of] the days,” based on “sefer divrei ha-yamim le-malkhei Yehudah” as well as “sefer divrei ha-yammim lemalkhei Israel,” meaning “book of the days of the kings of Judah” and “book of the days of the kings of Israel,” respectively.
Seems like Chronicles was a history to me. Even if wasn't called that exact word, that is what it was intended to be, as was, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1st Samuel, 2nd Samuel, 1st Kings, 2nd Kings, 1st Chronicles, 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther.
The first 5 books of the Bible are referred to as the Books of the Law. The next 12 books of the Bible are referred to as the Books of History.
The books contain geneaologies, accounts of battles and encounters with people...in short histories.
Second, it is amazing that these 'scholars' know better what the reason for the writing of the Bible was than the authors. Try reading the Bible instead of listening to the hacks and you will learn something instead of wasting the time you spent wating NOVA.
Quote:
The books contain geneaologies, accounts of battles and encounters with people...in short histories.
Ezra 4:15 so that a search may be made in the archives of your predecessors. In these records you will find that this city is a rebellious city, troublesome to kings and provinces, a place with a long history of sedition. Ezra 4:19 I issued an order and a search was made, and it was found that this city has a long history of revolt against kings and has been a place of rebellion and sedition. Acts 17:26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 4141 Location: Florida
Thanks: 121 Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
Robert,
Thank you.
Star Burst,
I have no idea what your point was but I know people who have been slammed for duplica post.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 3893 Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 689 Thanked: 562 times in 454 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
stahrwe wrote:
I don't know what is more amazing; the stuff that makes it onto TV, or the people who buy into it.
The scenario you relate seems to parallel, to a large degree the premises we encountered in TEoG. I confess that I did not watch the show and don't intend to - I've seen and heard it before and it falls apart on two fronts.
First of all, "One speaker observed that there is no word for history in the Bible..."[see DWill post above.]
His statement indicts him for his ignorance, and you and the other BT members would not be excited by this error if you had a basic knowledge of the Bible.
What about 1st and 2nd Chronicles? What is a Chronicle?
I used to like some children's books called The Chronicles of Narnia. I guess they were historical... must have been. You don't actually refute the statement, notice. But since you're not going to acquaint yourself with any of the rest of the presentation, out of certain knowledge that it all has to be false, don't you think it's be better just not to comment?
You proceed on the assumption that knowing the Bible equals having good judgment about it. You demonstrate that that isn't necessarily so.
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 4141 Location: Florida
Thanks: 121 Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
DWill wrote:
I used to like some children's books called The Chronicles of Narnia. I guess they were historical... must have been. You don't actually refute the statement, notice. But since you're not going to acquaint yourself with any of the rest of the presentation, out of certain knowledge that it all has to be false, don't you think it's be better just not to comment?
You proceed on the assumption that knowing the Bible equals having good judgment about it. You demonstrate that that isn't necessarily so.
I actually did demonstrate the error about 'history' and the Bible and Robert, to his credit backed me up.
As for Narnia C. S. Lewis stated that his purpose in writing them was to present the Gospels in a format accessible to children. He was inspired by Tolkein and especially George MacDonald though MacDonald's fiction was not intended for children. It was never intended to be a history and to bring it up as a rebuttal is a definite miss unless you would like to propose it a the fiction discussion; after-all you did say you liked them.
As for watching the show, being wrong about 'history' does not inspire one with respect to the level of scholarship associated with it. I have also endured enough of those shows to know the drill so I am not optimistic that I would hear something new or compelling. Finally, one is getting too old to repeat the same mistakes so just as I don't have to pole myself in the eye to know it hurts I don't have to watch a show that didn't do basic fact checking to know it will ... well, you fill in the blank.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
Ezra 4:15 so that a search may be made in the archives of your predecessors. In these records you will find that this city is a rebellious city, troublesome to kings and provinces, a place with a long history of sedition. Ezra 4:19 I issued an order and a search was made, and it was found that this city has a long history of revolt against kings and has been a place of rebellion and sedition. Acts 17:26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
The word "history" to the ancients might have meant something very different than the word as it is used today. Much depends on the translation and context.
The idea of history as a factual undertaking is probably new to the modern era. Two thousand years ago, the primitives had no notion for accurate, unbiased historical observation which really isn't possible anyway. We understand today that history is usually written by the victors and presents a biased perspective. Only with a scholar's eye can we go back in time and attempt to interpret the history from a more impartial and modern context. No reasonable or informed person is ever going to say the Bible is historically accurate and certainly not literally true.
We've discussed on other threads recently that it seems likely that in a pre-scientific world, people would have not have taken a literal view of the stories that were handed down to them from other cultures and other time periods. Just as DWill says, It wouldn't have bothered the ancients to have two versions of the creation story.
_________________ -Geo Who Knows Only His Own Generation Remains Always a Child Cicero, Orator 120
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 417 Images: 1
Thanks: 85 Thanked: 44 times in 44 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
Quote:
The idea of history as a factual undertaking is probably new to the modern era. Two thousand years ago, the primitives had no notion for accurate, unbiased historical observation which really isn't possible anyway.
Wow... now I'm starting to wonder who is the more naive, the 'primitives' or the modern men. The 'ancients' were no 'dumb bunnies' just because they didn't have the likes of 'modern men' to educate them. It would be good to do a little more ancient history reading and a little less modern man listening imo
_________________ "And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."--Jesus "For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world--to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."--Jesus
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 3224 Location: Canberra
Thanks: 820 Thanked: 817 times in 614 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
Herodotus and Thucydides are viewed as the fathers of history. Herodotus tended to just accept lies that people told him, while Thucydides founded the idea of history as a scientific discipline, attempting to provide an objective account of events. Biblical narratives are far more mythological, rendering oral history into wishful accounts.
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 3224 Location: Canberra
Thanks: 820 Thanked: 817 times in 614 posts
Gender: Country:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
From Acts 17:26 "From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands"
we can see this account of history is incorrect, because it assumes that all humanity is descended from Adam.
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 4141 Location: Florida
Thanks: 121 Thanked: 143 times in 133 posts
Gender:
Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets
geo wrote:
The idea of history as a factual undertaking is probably new to the modern era. Two thousand years ago, the primitives had no notion for accurate, unbiased historical observation which really isn't possible anyway. We understand today that history is usually written by the victors and presents a biased perspective. Only with a scholar's eye can we go back in time and attempt to interpret the history from a more impartial and modern context. No reasonable or informed person is ever going to say the Bible is historically accurate and certainly not literally true.
What a marvelous conceited fellow you are -primitives ---really? No nothing for accuracy? How about 8 chapters of geneaology? You think modern histories are unbiased and accurate?
geo wrote:
We've discussed on other threads recently that it seems likely that in a pre-scientific world, people would have not have taken a literal view of the stories that were handed down to them from other cultures and other time periods. Just as DWill says, It wouldn't have bothered the ancients to have two versions of the creation story.
It didn't bother the 'ancients' and it doesn't bother the moderns because there are not two creation stories. Those who advance that are clearly unversed in the Bible. Genesis 1 is an executive summary. Genesis 2 is a detailed account of the creation of man, a drill down if you will.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
Last edited by stahrwe on Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.
Support BookTalk.org
BookTalk.org is being upgraded to a totally new design. This upgrade is expensive. Any support would be VERY helpful! See who supports us.
Make a donation
PEOPLE PAYING FOR OUR UPGRADE:
• afv - $10 May
• LevV - $50 March
• Dexter - $10 March
• supernova38 - $25 March
• Oblivion - $20 March
• jheimlich - $20 February
• Robert Tulip - $50 February
• giselle - $50 January
Children here need worming
regularly, and I think I
need to buy more worming
tablets, so while my friends
sit on the beach, I have to
catch bush taxis up to the… more
The children have a long way
to walk to the nearest primary
school. At the moment they are
in temporary accommodation,
with volunteer teachers. There
is community land available,
a… more
The price of The 12th Disciple
has been updated to $3.99 for
Kindle readers. The book is
still available for free to
borrow for Amazon Prime
members. To be
competitive, and s… more
The 12th Disciple has been
reviewed by two different
people on Amazon. They
purchased the Kindle edition;
one in the US, one in the
UK. One review was
5-stars (US) and the oth… more
I'd like to say I've
been reading Harry Potter
since the day the world renown
series appeared on the
scene. Unfortunately,
the truth is I began reading
Harry Potter… more
Easter teaches many of us the
importance of redemption and
resurrection. Regardless of
what faith people follow, the
story of Jesus Christ has been
told in many languages in many
c… more
Our Book Talk will begin on
Wednesday, May 2nd. I look
forward to hearing about your
learning and classroom
experiences with Number Talks
as it all unfolds...
NONOPPOSITIONAL NONVIOLENCE
The minute you conquer the
fear of death, at that moment
you are free. I submit to you
that if a man hasnt
discovered something that he
will die f… more
Yesterday, when I went to feed
Jeni the donkey, I noticed
swarms of bees entering
Ebrimas house through the
cracks in the door. We both
had a look, but he didnt
open his door… more
Whether you want to implement
number talks but are unsure of
how to begin or have
experience but want more
guidance in crafting
purposeful problems, this
dynamic multimedia resourc… more
Do you feel entitled? For
years I have listened to and,
in some instances, complained
that some people in America
feel entitled. For years I
have watched as these people
are portra… more
On Fat Tuesday and Ash
Wednesday of 2012, The 12th
Disciple was free to Kindle
users on both days. In all,
about 550 worldwide Kindle
users downloaded a copy of the
book.
Sacred Are the Brave a
collection of short stories
about the nonviolent
revolutions 1986-1989 is now
available in Kindle. Each of
the nine stories has
characters who are just
… more
The Weekend Trippers is the
true story of Rfn Ted Taylor
and his part in the heroic
last stand in Calais May 1940.
The Weekend Trippers is based
on Teds diaries written at
the… more
Tell your friends when to meet you in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.
If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.
BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.
Tweet This Topic
