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The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Robert Tulip

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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Dawn wrote:
Nietzsche puts it eloquently in his Antichrist where he says ‘in the son that becomes conviction which in the father was still a lie’.
Judging from Nietsche's own deluded end I'm not sure I'd go with his perception of reality here. After declaring God dead and imagining existence without God, he spent the last thirteen years of his life in insanity cared for by his religious mother... Eloquence does not imply truthfulness.

One can say all they will about the evolution of myth but it does't have any bearing on the the transmission of history as recorded in the Bible, and confirmed by archaeology and manuscript evidence.
Dawn, your comment here is pure fallacious ad hominem rhetoric. You should be ashamed of stooping to such deceptive tactics. Nietzsche's mental illness cannot be used to rebut specific arguments in his philosophy. Of course the evolution of myth has "bearing on the transmission of history as recorded in the Bible". Your conclusion that there is no relation between observed patterns in cultural evolution and Biblical narrative is baseless.

I explained the text you quote as follows: "What this means is that the evolution of culture typically sees one generation who use stories for social purposes, conscious that the stories are invented, but their successors increasingly find that admitting the invention is harder than pretending the stories are true, and so the fantasy petrifies into ideology and dogma."

This is a psychological insight into the evolution of Christianity. Originally, writers knew their ideas were allegory, and expected their readers also to understand that they were allegory, even while the literal story was given out as truth to the masses. However, over time, the standing of these texts was enhanced by the delusion that they were historically based. Finkelstein has proved how much Biblical material is erroneous.

You imply with your slur on Nietzsche that anyone who follows this argument through to its logical conclusions is mentally ill, and that conventional faith protects people from insanity - 'Believe it or you will go crazy'. That is just bullying. The real pathology is in the deluded beliefs of orthodoxy.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Dawn, your comment here is pure fallacious ad hominem rhetoric. You should be ashamed of stooping to such deceptive tactics.
A common denominator with the very religious is a very real and lifelong ignorance of the correct way to think. How else could such delusion last an entire life? Stahrwe has vocally and adamantly demanded that his fallacious arguments aren't fallacious. To him, it's absurd that the very same reasoning he's used his entire life is now being incriminated. For some reason, these people haven't been exposed to critical thinking. It's common knowledge(I would think) that logic does indeed have infinite "flaws". Which aren't flaws, but merely situations where logic should not be used. Stahrwe found an example of one of these flaws and believes he's found his excuse to continue to commit fallacies. I don't think you'll convince anyone as old as Dawn and Stahrwe that logic should be utilized in their thoughts. Logic is much weaker than their faith, and will be dismissed in a heartbeat if/when the two aren't in agreement.

I'd venture to guess that Dawn has no idea that her comments on Nietzsche are false. Such heuristics in arriving at conclusions are commonplace, and that very fact makes is seem legitimate.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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tat tvam asi wrote:The best response to the text of old program "The Bibles Buried Secrets" is obviously the text to "The Bible Unearthed", Finkelstein's book after which a newer program has aired: http://ebookee.org/The-Bible-Unearthed- ... 30017.html



It's a complete and total over overview of the situation. Here's the full documentary based on the book:
I suppose it is a waste of time to ask for a transcript but it is reasonable to ask who produced these videos and when and where were they aired?

thanks.
Last edited by stahrwe on Tue May 24, 2011 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked an

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The tv program covers the content of the book, which is free to download and is right there in the quote you've just posted. Download it. Read it, use your dragon software, do what you must but there it is ripe for taking in the very quote you've just posted. I need to check but I believe the program aired in 09. I remember seeing The Bibles Buried Secrets and was curious about Finkelstein only to finally see The Bible Unearthed which gave a much more well rounded coverage of the issue. The solomons gates issue is very old news. They found more and more of them, ranging up to centuries apart and in pagan built regions. In the end the gates merely display a fashionable style of the time periods and in no way provide anything close to what the biblical archaeologists started out claiming. It's all there in the book text and tv program discussing the book. And as for David, no one can sure. The inscription can be taken as proof of a king David of some type, but nothing remotely close to biblical portrayal. No large kingdom at all but rather the exact opposite. Even then, the king in question could have been named after the mythic god for all we know, as many kings were. There's nothing but a large range of uncertainty, bottom line.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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stahrwe wrote:The Nova Show The Bible's Buried Secrets has been on the back burner for a bit, but while gone it was not fogotten and we have just finished a cut at consolidating, or at least beiginning a colsolidation of it.

A frequent claim of atheists relates to the historicity of Bible stories and characters. Two frequently doubted are David and Solomon. In the Nova show, Finkelstein doubts whether David was a real person and if he was his 'kingdom' had to be a small tribal area. Nothing resembling the Bible's description. The problem is that Finkelstein's conclusion is based mostly on conjecture and is countered by the following, taken from the transcript:
NARRATOR: When the biblical chronology of Israel's kings can be cross-referenced with historical inscriptions, like the Tel Dan Stele, they can provide scholars with fairly reliable dates. King David is the earliest biblical figure confirmed by archaeology to be historical. And most scholars agree he lived around 1000 B.C., the 10th century.

Could any of the Bible have been written during David's reign? The earliest Hebrew alphabet discovered by Ron Tappy carved on a stone at Tel Zayit provides an enticing clue.

[transcript page 15]

NARRATOR: So has Mazar discovered the Palace of David? She adds up the evidence. The building is huge, it is located in a prominent place in the oldest part of Jerusalem, and the pottery, according to Albright's chronology, dates to the 10th century B.C., the time of David. Mazar believes she has indeed found the Palace of David.

But that evidence and, indeed, the kingdom itself rest on the dates associated with fragments of pottery, and some critics argue the system for dating that pottery relies too heavily on the Bible.

ISRAEL FINKELSTEIN: Archaeologists in the past did not rely too heavily on the Bible, they relied only on the Bible. We have a problem in dating. How do you date in archaeology? You need an anchor from outside.

NARRATOR: Today, there is a more scientific method to anchor pottery to firm dates, radiocarbon dating. It is a specialty of Elisabetta Boaretto of the Weizmann Institute.

ELISABETTA BOARETTO (Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel): The first step is, of course, in the field, which relates this sample material like olive pits or seeds or charcoal to the archaeological context.

NARRATOR: If an olive seed is found at the same layer as a piece of pottery, the carbon in the seed can be used to date the pottery.

When the seed dies, its radioactive carbon-14 decays at a consistent rate over time. By measuring the ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12, Boaretto can determine the age of the olive seed, which, in turn, can be used to date the pottery.

Boaretto has meticulously collected and analyzed hundreds of samples from over 20 sites throughout Israel. Her carbon samples date the pottery that Albright and most archaeologists associate with the time of David and Solomon to around 75 years later.

[transcript page 17]

When the seed dies, its radioactive carbon-14 decays at a consistent rate over time. By measuring the ratio of carbon-14 to carbon-12, Boaretto can determine the age of the olive seed, which, in turn, can be used to date the pottery.

Boaretto has meticulously collected and analyzed hundreds of samples from over 20 sites throughout Israel. Her carbon samples date the pottery that Albright and most archaeologists associate with the time of David and Solomon to around 75 years later.

For events so long ago, this may seem like a trivial difference, but if Boaretto is right, Mazar's Palace of David and Tappy's ancient Hebrew alphabet have to be re-dated. This places them in the time of the lesser-known kings Omri, Ahab, and his despised wife Jezebel, all worshippers of the Canaanite god Baal.

With no writing or monumental building, suddenly the Kingdom of David and Solomon is far less glorious than the Bible describes.

ISRAEL FINKELSTEIN: So David and Solomon did not rule over a big territory. It was a small chiefdom, if you wish, with just a few settlements, very poor, the population was limited, there was no manpower for big conquest, and so on and so forth.

NARRATOR: This would make David a petty warlord ruling over a chiefdom, and his royal capital, Jerusalem, nothing more than a cow town.

ISRAEL FINKELSTEIN: These are the results of the radiocarbon dating. He or she who decides to ignore these results, I treat them as if arguing that the world is flat, that the Earth is flat. And I cannot argue anymore.

NARRATOR: But it's not so simple. Other teams collected radiocarbon samples following the same meticulous methodology. According to their results, Mazar's palace and Tappy's alphabet can date to the 10th century, the time of David and Solomon.

How can this discrepancy be explained? The problem is that these radiocarbon dates have a margin of error of plus- or minus-30 years, about the difference between the two sides.

NARRATOR: Pottery and radiocarbon dating alone cannot determine if the Kingdom of David
and Solomon was as large and prosperous as described in the Bible.

Fortunately, the Bible offers clues of other places to dig for evidence of this kingdom. The Bible credits David with conquering the kingdom, but it is Solomon, his son, who is the great builder.

VOICEOVER (Reading from the Bible "Revised Standard Version," First Kings 9:15): This was the purpose of the forced labor which Solomon imposed. It was to build the House of YHWH ... and the wall of Jerusalem, Hazor, Megiddo and Gezer.

NARRATOR: Here in Hazor, Amnon Ben-Tor, director of excavations, believes this may be evidence of Solomon's building campaign.

Archaeologists call it a six-chambered gate, a massive entryway, fortified with towers and guard rooms. Ben-Tor's predecessor, Yigal Yadin first uncovered this structure.
AMNON BEN-TOR: It turned out to be a six-chambered gate, and Yadin immediately remembered that a very, very similar gate was excavated at Gezer, and then Chicago University excavated this gate, here at Megiddo.

NARRATOR: Stunned by the similarity of these three gates, Yadin recalled the passage in the Bible.

AMNON BEN-TOR: Here we have a wonderful connection of the biblical passage as it shows up in archaeology.

NARRATOR: Three monumental gates, all based on the same plan, would seem to be powerful evidence not only of prosperity, but also of a central authority. Throughout its history the Israelites had been divided into tribes, then into kingdoms, north and south. The locations of these strikingly similar gates in both regions suggest a single governing authority throughout the land.

But how can we be sure this is the Kingdom of David and Solomon? The answer, once again, lies in Egypt.

DONALD REDFORD: The head-smiting scene, which you see on this wall, commemorates a military campaign conducted by Pharaoh Shishak, or Sheshonk, the founder of Dynasty 22, in Egypt.

NARRATOR: The Egyptian pharaoh Shishak invades Israel, an event the Bible reports and specifically dates to five years after Solomon's death, during the reign of his son, Rehoboam.
VOICEOVER (Reading from the Bible "Revised Standard Version," First Kings 14:25–26): In the fifth year of King Rehoboam, King Shishak of Egypt marched against Jerusalem and carried off the treasures of the House of YHWH and the treasures of the royal palace. He carried off everything.

DONALD REDFORD: The importance of this, in fixing one of the earliest dates, specific dates, in which Egyptian history coincides with biblical history is really startling and has to be taken note of.

NARRATOR: This stunning convergence between the Bible and Egyptian history gives a firm date for the death of Solomon. Shishak's campaign, according to the well-established Egyptian chronology, dates to 925 B.C. And the Bible says Solomon dies five years earlier, which means 930 B.C. This is further evidence that David and Solomon lived in the 10th century, but there's even more hidden in these walls.

These ovals, with their depictions of bound captives and city walls, represent places Pharaoh Shishak conquered in Israel. One of those places is Gezer, where archaeologists find the hallmark of Solomon's building program, a six-chambered gate.
Bill Dever directed the excavations in the late 1960s.

WILLIAM DEVER: We can actually see vivid evidence here of a destruction. Down below, we have the original stones, pretty much in situ, but, if you look in here, you see the stones are badly cracked. You can even see where they're burned from the heat of a huge fire that has been built here. And then, up in here, you see the fire had been so intense that the soft limestone has melted into lime, and it flows down like lava. This is vivid evidence of a destruction, and we would connect that with this well-known raid of Pharaoh Shishak.
NARRATOR: And if the gate was destroyed by Shishak, in 925 B.C., then it must have been built during the lifetime of Solomon, who died just five years earlier.

WILLIAM DEVER: Surely this kind of monumental architecture is evidence of state formation, and if it's in the 10th century, then...Solomon.

NARRATOR: Although a minority of archaeologists continue to disagree, this convergence of the Bible, Egyptian chronology and Solomon's gates is powerful evidence that a great kingdom existed at the time of David and Solomon, spanning all of Israel, north and south, with its capital in Jerusalem.
[transcript Pg 20]
Conclusions:
Finkelstein wrong
David and Solomon real as described by the Bible
Portions of Bible written cotemporaneous with life of David/Solomon.
BTW Stahrwe, why didn't you post a link to the above transcript in the opening post? Where are you getting this transcript from? Perhaps readers would like to search the transcript and pull up quotations as well.
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Let's go ahead and post the transcript to this section of the program since you seem inclined to believe that this program is authoritative and absolute:

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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Robert Tulip wrote:
Dawn wrote:
Nietzsche puts it eloquently in his Antichrist where he says ‘in the son that becomes conviction which in the father was still a lie’.
Judging from Nietsche's own deluded end I'm not sure I'd go with his perception of reality here. After declaring God dead and imagining existence without God, he spent the last thirteen years of his life in insanity cared for by his religious mother... Eloquence does not imply truthfulness.

One can say all they will about the evolution of myth but it does't have any bearing on the the transmission of history as recorded in the Bible, and confirmed by archaeology and manuscript evidence.
Dawn, your comment here is pure fallacious ad hominem rhetoric. You should be ashamed of stooping to such deceptive tactics. Nietzsche's mental illness cannot be used to rebut specific arguments in his philosophy. Of course the evolution of myth has "bearing on the transmission of history as recorded in the Bible". Your conclusion that there is no relation between observed patterns in cultural evolution and Biblical narrative is baseless.

I explained the text you quote as follows: "What this means is that the evolution of culture typically sees one generation who use stories for social purposes, conscious that the stories are invented, but their successors increasingly find that admitting the invention is harder than pretending the stories are true, and so the fantasy petrifies into ideology and dogma."

This is a psychological insight into the evolution of Christianity. Originally, writers knew their ideas were allegory, and expected their readers also to understand that they were allegory, even while the literal story was given out as truth to the masses. However, over time, the standing of these texts was enhanced by the delusion that they were historically based. Finkelstein has proved how much Biblical material is erroneous.
This is a psychological hypothesis perhaps into the evolutions of Christianity or applied to any other history you wish to erase. With this theory we can do away with the study of history. After all, it's all just fables fathers passed on to their children... This may be an explanation of myth but it does not in any way explain history Finkelstein has proven nothing of the sort.
Robert Tulip wrote: You imply with your slur on Nietzsche that anyone who follows this argument through to its logical conclusions is mentally ill, and that conventional faith protects people from insanity - 'Believe it or you will go crazy'. That is just bullying. The real pathology is in the deluded beliefs of orthodoxy.
My comment re: Nietzsche is not meant to extend to 'anyone who follows this argument through...' as being mentally ill. Nietzsche was in fact very distressed at the idea of there being no God. It is likely what drove him to mental illness. For him, mental health and atheistic belief were an untenable pairing and he was the one that predicted that 'a universal madness would break out when the truth of what mankind had done in killing god dawned on us.' (from The End of Reason, 27). I do not intend to imply that conventional faith guarantees sanity, this is obviously not true, but it is a starting point for wholeness for the mentally ill...another topic.
"And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."--Jesus
"For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world--to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."--Jesus
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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Dawn wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:This is a psychological insight into the evolution of Christianity. Originally, writers knew their ideas were allegory, and expected their readers also to understand that they were allegory, even while the literal story was given out as truth to the masses. However, over time, the standing of these texts was enhanced by the delusion that they were historically based. Finkelstein has proved how much Biblical material is erroneous.
This is a psychological hypothesis perhaps into the evolutions of Christianity or applied to any other history you wish to erase. With this theory we can do away with the study of history. After all, it's all just fables fathers passed on to their children... This may be an explanation of myth but it does not in any way explain history Finkelstein has proven nothing of the sort.
Dawn, there is a difference between history and religion. The study of history aims to discover facts, validated by evidence. The transmission of religion, which Nietzsche criticized, aimed to encourage belief without respect for evidence. Oral tradition is a particularly unreliable form of history, prone to rapid distortion by Chinese whispers and wishful thinking. Recognising this psychological problem of the unreliability of religious claims is actually essential to the rigorous study of history, far from erasing or undermining it as you suggest.
Robert Tulip wrote: You imply with your slur on Nietzsche that anyone who follows this argument through to its logical conclusions is mentally ill, and that conventional faith protects people from insanity - 'Believe it or you will go crazy'. That is just bullying. The real pathology is in the deluded beliefs of orthodoxy.
My comment re: Nietzsche is not meant to extend to 'anyone who follows this argument through...' as being mentally ill. Nietzsche was in fact very distressed at the idea of there being no God. It is likely what drove him to mental illness. For him, mental health and atheistic belief were an untenable pairing and he was the one that predicted that 'a universal madness would break out when the truth of what mankind had done in killing god dawned on us.' (from The End of Reason, 27). I do not intend to imply that conventional faith guarantees sanity, this is obviously not true, but it is a starting point for wholeness for the mentally ill...another topic.
Nietzsche's madness was a physical disease, possibly from meningioma or syphilis. It suits the religious to say Nietzsche went mad as a result of his ideas, but that is just a tactic to deter rational scrutiny of faith.

By the way, "The End of Reason" is not a book by Nietzsche, but by Christian apologist Ravi Zacharias (link).
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Re: The Bible's Buried Secrets part II; Atheist Myth debunked and Israel Finkelstein proven wrong.

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My late father-in-law, used to say that history is HIS-story.
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