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The abuses in Iraq...how do you feel?

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Chris OConnor Chris OConnor has been starred
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 7:57 am    Post subject: The abuses in Iraq...how do you feel? Reply with quote
The pictures and stories emerging everyday are turning my stomach and I'm sure yours. Any opinions?

Chris

"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them" -- Mark Twain

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PeterDF PeterDF has been starred
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: The abuses in Iraq...how do you feel? Reply with quote
Chris

But it must be all right because Our sicko Christian leaders said that we have God on our side. >:

If we have God on our side we can do no wrong. (Where's my sick bag?)

Edited by: PeterDF at: 5/10/04 1:09 pm
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Dissident Heart Dissident Heart has been starred
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: The abuses in Iraq...how do you feel? Reply with quote
Below is an excerpt from an essay Those Who Deny The Crimes of the Past: American Racist Atrocity- Denial 101, 1776 - 2004

The essay is a terribly shameful and frightening timeline of the list of abuses commited by American Soldiers throughout our terrifying history. When seen in this very ugly light, the abuses commited to the prisoners of war in Iraq...sadly...seem fairly light, and consistent.

Those Who Fail to Acknowledge the Crimes of the Past...

Quote:
Seen against, and as part of, the vast historical canvass of U.S. racist-imperial slaughter, the monumental US crimes in Southeast Asia that John Kerry hinted at in his 1971 testimony are part of a larger story that renders self-delusional many Americans' notion that their nation-state is some sort of great exceptional moral and ethical city on a global hill.

It is especially important to appreciate the significance of the vicious, often explicitly genocidal "homeland" assaults on native-Americans, which set foundational racist and national-narcissist patterns for subsequent U.S. global butchery, disproportionately directed at non-European people of color.

The deletion of the real story of the so-called "battle of Washita" from the official Seventh Cavalry history given to the perpetrators of the No Gun Ri massacre is no small detail.

Denial about Washita and Sand Creek (and so on) encouraged US savagery at Wounded Knee, the denial of which encouraged US savagery in the Philippines, the denial of which encouraged US savagery in Korea, the denial of which encouraged US savagery in Vietnam, the denial of which (and all before) has recently encouraged US savagery in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It's a vicious circle of recurrent violence, well known to mental health practitioners who deal with countless victims of domestic violence living in the dark shadows of the imperial homeland's crippling, stunted, and itself-occupied social and political order.

Power-mad US forces deploying the latest genocidal war tools, some suggestively named after native tribes that white North American "pioneers" tried to wipe off the face of the earth (ie, "Apache," "Blackhawk," and "Comanche" helicopters) are walking in bloody footsteps that trace back across centuries, oceans, forests and plains to the leveled villages, shattered corpses, and stolen resources of those who Roosevelt acknowledged as America's "original inhabitants."

Racist imperial carnage and its denial, like charity, begin at home. Those who deny the crimes of the past are likely to repeat their offenses in the future as long as they retain the means and motive to do so.

It is folly, however, for any nation to think that it can stand above the judgments of history, uniquely free of terrible consequences for what Ward Churchill calls "imperial arrogance and criminality." Every new U.S. murder of innocents abroad breeds untold numbers of anti-imperial resistance fighters, ready to die and eager to use the latest available technologies and techniques to kill representatives – even just ordinary citizens – of what they see as an American Predator state. This along with much else will help precipitate an inevitable return of US power to the grounds of earth and history.

As that fall accelerates, the U.S. will face a fateful choice, full of potentially grave or liberating consequences for the fate of humanity and the earth.

It will accept its fall with relief and gratitude, asking for forgiveness, and making true reparation at home and abroad, consistent with an honest appraisal of what Churchill, himself of native-American ancestry, calls "the realities of [its] national history and the responsibilities that history has bequeathed": goodbye American Exceptionalism and Woodrow Wilson's guns.

Or Americans and the world will face the likely alternative of permanent imperial war and the construction of an ever-more imposing U.S. fortress state, perpetuated by Orwellian denial and savage intentional historical ignorance.

This savage barbarism of dialectically inseparable empire and inequality will be defended in the last wagon-train instance by missiles and bombs loaded with radioactive materials wrenched from lands once freely roamed by an immeasurably more civilized people than those who came to destroy.


Paul Street (pstreet@cul-chicago.org) writes on imperialism, racism, and thought control. His book Empire and Inequality: Writings on America and the World Since 9/11 (Paradigm Publishers) will be released in the summer of 2004.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: how do I feel? Totally disgusted! Reply with quote

And all the more so for having fallen for the specious arguments that got us into this occupation!
It is emerging that Military Intelligence from England and Israel were advisors in the jails in Iraq, and the 'softening up' of prisoners by psychological pressure, effectively de-humanising them, is a practice that has been justified after 9/11 as a 'regrettable' means-to-an-end in the extra-judicial conditions in Afghan holding centres, in Guantanamo, and now in Iraq.
The moral centre of our 'civilizing' argument rings totally hollow now.


Satz.

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Niall001 Niall001 has been starred
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 8:15 am    Post subject: 000 Reply with quote
This isn't suprising but neither is it acceptable. Its war and bad things will happen. Soldiers are soldiers from one country to another and they will abuse prisoners. I don't understand why everyone is so shocked.

What is worrying is the fact that these people were under orders to 'do whatever was neccessary' to soften up prisoners. Whats worrying is that Rummy tried to cover it up. Whats worrying is that we don't know whats happening in Bagram and Diego Garcia. THe man in charge of interrogation in Iraq, Geoffrey Miller, is the same man who was in charge of camp x-ray. Whats disgusting is that the US turns suspected terrorists over to Jordan and the Saudis for interrogation when Washington's own papers condemn these countries for their use of torture.

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PeterDF PeterDF has been starred
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 000 Reply with quote
Niall

I don't agree when you say "it's war and bad things happen." That's fatalism - what hope is there for us if we just throw up our hands and say that's how it is.

I also think that there is a distinction between what men do in the heat of battle and what has happened here. In the Second World War the British afforded their prisoners the rights enshrined in the Geneva Conventions, this also happened to the Argentinian prisoners (whom were told by their officers that the British would eat them) after the Falklands War. Even the Nazis treated their POW's properly.

What a sickening indictment of the modern world. I've lost that sick bag again...

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Niall001 Niall001 has been starred
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 10:28 am    Post subject: 00 Reply with quote
Peter, I am disgusted that this happened, but I expected prisoners to be abused. Yes, the Nazis and the British treated prisoners well, but I promise you that there were abuses. In any army, there will be scumbags who will abuse the defeated, whats important here, isn't that troops abused the prisoners, but that they were practically (in a wink wink nudge nudge kind of way) told to abuse the prisoners. The cover-up is whats important.

On the same issue, but from a slightly different perspective, isn't it a bit rich that you can show the maimed, the injured, the mutilated, the dead, the humiliated and the tortured, but you've got to blur out nudity.

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PeterDF PeterDF has been starred
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: 00 Reply with quote
Niall

It's not so much the cover up as the fact that it was systematic.

Quote:
you can show the maimed, the injured, the mutilated, the dead, the humiliated and the tortured, but you've got to blur out nudity
I agree entirely :rollin what nonsense. What a ludicrous upside down world we live in.

Edited by: PeterDF at: 5/12/04 11:42 am
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Dissident Heart Dissident Heart has been starred
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 12:29 pm    Post subject: Absurdity 101 Reply with quote
We can watch people stabbed, shot, beaten, hung, mutilated, eviscerted, exploded and annihiliated....but dammit, there better not be one female nipple, or any trace of penis.

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Chris OConnor Chris OConnor has been starred
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Absurdity 101 Reply with quote
Has anyone seen the video of Nick Berg getting his head cut off? Yes, our soldiers did wrong and deserve to be punished, but there is no comparison to the barbaric acts of Al Queda. The video is not available in many places, and is not easy to watch or listen to if you have a weak stomach.

Chris

"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them" -- Mark Twain

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