Don McLeroy wrote:...were dinosaurs on the ark? sure they were, we don't know.

Dinosaurs were on the ark?

Don McLeroy wrote:yes, yes, that's what i would teach

Houston, we have a problem

John Donald "Don" McLeroy is a dentist

McLeroy posted a reply to the story on the Current’s website:

Two comments–First I do hold to dogma (opinion that I believe is fact), however, unlike the evolutionists, I do not wish to insert it into the textbooks.

from McLeroy responds

http://tfninsider.org/2013/09/25/don-mcleroy-responds/

Just so you know where I am coming from: I am a semi-retired lawyer, but as a young college graduate I taught science in the public schools in Dallas for a number of years.

The (Texas) State Board of Education is a fifteen member panel elected from geographical districts. There is no 'test' for who may run for a board seat. Thus you have many differing views. You have people on the board with varying degrees of education, and equally varying background. In Texas for the past twenty or thirty years there has been a push by conservative/fundamentalist religious groups to ban the teaching of evolution. This is based on their belief in a strict or literal interpretation of the Christian bible. And yes, Texas does influence the adoption of textbooks by smaller (population-wise) states, it is the number two state in population. And book publishers don't like to have to prepare, edit and print a separate biology (example) text for every state that has a differening viewpoint.

In Texas for the past twenty or thirty years there has been a push by conservative/fundamentalist religious groups to ban the teaching of evolution.

From what I understand here it is not a ban that's being sought, but rather the questioning of claims of scientific fact.
Is that not correct?

There is nothing wrong with a representation of christian scientists on the Board. I am sure there are many fine christian scientists.

From what I'm reading, the disputes appear to be banal and pedantic. However, in an open forum society, any such disputes should be accorded audience before casting judgement. Nor should we assume any objections are "more of the same," because certain individuals are from a religious background. That's discriminatory.

If you do a little digging there is case law that exemplifies discriminatory actions taken against religious organizations.
I've yet to hear of any fair-minded, rational Skeptics who support our country's toleration principles protest such wrong doings.

I do not believe Creationism should be taught in science classrooms.

I also do not believe teachers with atheistic leanings should be allowed to use a classroom as a secular pulpit to spew their personal worldviews. If proven, they should be banned from teaching and flogged in the public square.

youkrst wrote:

Don McLeroy wrote:...were dinosaurs on the ark? sure they were, we don't know.

Dinosaurs were on the ark?

Don McLeroy wrote:yes, yes, that's what i would teach

Houston, we have a problem

John Donald "Don" McLeroy is a dentist

McLeroy posted a reply to the story on the Current’s website:

Two comments–First I do hold to dogma (opinion that I believe is fact), however, unlike the evolutionists, I do not wish to insert it into the textbooks.

from McLeroy responds

http://tfninsider.org/2013/09/25/don-mcleroy-responds/

This is all trollish garbage.

What's worse is that we have someone thanking the author for the post.

The attempt to ban the teaching of evolution has been going on much longer than 20-30 years; the Scopes trial was in 1925. However Ant may have a fair point in that activists had to give up on an outright ban, but then moved on to the lesser goal of having Creationism or Intelligent Design taught along with evolution in public schools. You may remember their slogan "Teach the controversy". The Dover lawsuit in 2005 pretty much demolished that effort. In this case it seems Creationists are now reduced to attempting to insert technical changes to a textbook, which may be "banal and pedantic", but that doesn't mean it is not pernicious. The suggested changes are being reviewed, receiving very strong opposition, and will probably be rejected.

I also do not believe teachers with atheistic leanings should be allowed to use a classroom as a secular pulpit to spew their personal worldviews.

Any teacher advocating atheism would be fired by the end of the day. Discrimination?

LanDroid wrote:The attempt to ban the teaching of evolution has been going on much longer than 20-30 years; the Scopes trial was in 1925. However Ant may have a fair point in that activists had to give up on an outright ban, but then moved on to the lesser goal of having Creationism or Intelligent Design taught along with evolution in public schools. You may remember their slogan "Teach the controversy". The Dover lawsuit in 2005 pretty much demolished that effort. In this case it seems Creationists are now reduced to attempting to insert technical changes to a textbook, which may be "banal and pedantic", but that doesn't mean it is not pernicious. The suggested changes are receiving very strong opposition and will probably be rejected.

I also do not believe teachers with atheistic leanings should be allowed to use a classroom as a secular pulpit to spew their personal worldviews.

Any teacher advocating atheism would be fired by the end of the day. Discrimination?

You forgot flogged.

An atheist teacher adding his/her personal worldview to pure scientific curriculum and dismissed for willfully and knowingly deviating from an established criteria for the purpose of subjecting students to extraneous thought?
YES

A Creationist committing all of the above?
YES

Heh, we cross-posted. I replied before you added the sentence 'bout a good ol' fashioned floggin!

ant wrote:I also do not believe teachers with atheistic leanings should be allowed to use a classroom as a secular pulpit to spew their personal worldviews. If proven, they should be banned from teaching and flogged in the public square.

If it's a worldview that is spewed, it would be methodological naturalism. That worldview is an essential assumption for the progress of science, but it also requires that we don't accept supernatural explanations. How do you propose teachers avoid that pitfall? It's necessarily an atheistic worldview, but you can't teach science without it. Or were you speaking of some other worldview?

What should a science teacher say to a student when the student says he refuses to do his homework on evolution because he believes the homework is invalid? Is the teacher justified in saying the student is incorrect?

ant wrote:I also do not believe teachers with atheistic leanings should be allowed to use a classroom as a secular pulpit to spew their personal worldviews.

ant wrote:

youkrst wrote:

Don McLeroy wrote:...were dinosaurs on the ark? sure they were, we don't know.

Dinosaurs were on the ark?

Don McLeroy wrote:yes, yes, that's what i would teach

Houston, we have a problem

John Donald "Don" McLeroy is a dentist

McLeroy posted a reply to the story on the Current’s website:

Two comments–First I do hold to dogma (opinion that I believe is fact), however, unlike the evolutionists, I do not wish to insert it into the textbooks.

from McLeroy responds

http://tfninsider.org/2013/09/25/don-mcleroy-responds/

This is all trollish garbage.

What's worse is that we have someone thanking the author for the post.

Uh, that was me thanking youkrst because McLeroy was, in fact, a Creationist who "spewed" exactly this kind of nonsense when he was the State Board of Education Chair. I guess you're coming to this kind of late, Ant, but many of us have been following the bullshit in Texas for years (see that article about Eugenie Scott, would ya?). A "knee jerk" reaction is the appropriate response when you see people trying to dumb down science curriculum so it better meshes with Creationist dogma. The fact that you're bending over backwards to give them a fair shake shows that you're complicit in trying to make the children of Texas as dumb as McLeroy who does actually believe that humans lived at the same time as dinosaurs. He does actually believe that dinosaurs were on Noah's ark.

"Someone has to stand up to the experts" - Don McLeroy

Here's McLeroy on the Stephen Colbert show. Watch this and read youkrst's link and then respond to my previous question. Do you think people like McLeroy should be involved in creating science education standards in the state of Texas? It's a simple question.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/40258/comments/

I used to believe in God as Nature but now that my science teacher told me that since science is descriptive and mechanistic, it follows that there is no God.!!!!

I've seen the LIGHT!!

Hallelujah!! Let's go to the Church of Non Belief now!
Let's all be Spiritual in the truest of TRUE Non Believing sense!!


Silence the Christians! We won't be able to progress if they spout belief in God. Science is in danger!
Feed them to the lions! Our future is at risk! Our children are at risk!!!