You are browsing the forum as a guest. Please log in or register to access additional features.
Online reading group and book discussion forum
  FORUMS ABOUT BOOKS VIDEOS TRANSCRIPTS LINKS BLOGS DONATE CONTACT  

     Log in   Register 


BookTalk.org News
• Only 4 members are currently signed up to receive email digests. Click on the digests link on the right at the top of every page to learn more. This is a great feature for keeping updated on forum activity.
• Regular casual chats are back on the menu! Check out the calendar for the schedule.

Links & Resources

Community Rules & Tips
For Authors & Publishers
Link to our old forum
Our Amazon.com Statistics
Book Suggestions
Rationally Speaking
Donations to BookTalk.org
FACTS Book Selections
BookTalk Forum Statistics
Games 170 FREE Games


Chat Room

Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room

Enter our Chat Room

Nov. 2008 Chat Schedule
Dec. 2008 Chat Schedule
Jan. 2009 Chat Schedule


Featured Videos

Dan Barker
author of "Godless"
talks about his deconversion


Dan Barker's Deconversion

Andrew Bacevich
"The Limits of Power"

Andrew Bacevich on The Limits of Power

More Videos

Author Interviews


Featured Member Blogs

Ophelia's Blog
Lawrence's Blog
Penelope's Blog
Frank 013's Blog

- View all member Blogs
- See the latest Blog posts


Amazon Honor System
Amazon Honor System Click Here to Pay Learn More

Donate to BookTalk.org

Please support BookTalk.org by making a small donation today!

Who supports us?


Related Links

Show us where you live!
BookTalk.org Member Map

Display Pagerank


stepchildren


 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BookTalk.org Forum Index -> Archived Book Discussions 2002-2003 -> The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley
Author Message
tarav tarav has been starred
Stupendously Brilliant
BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor
Silver Contributor

Avatar

Usergroups: None


Joined: 19 Jun 2003


Posts: 750

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: Female
Location: NC


PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 3:18 pm    Post subject: stepchildren Reply with quote
On page 215 Ridley says, "It is a fact that stepchildren are sixty-five times more likely to die than children living with their true parents..." Sixty-five more times likely seems like a big problem to me in light of how many children are living with parents or guardians who are not their biological parents. Pinker touches on this subject also. Has anyone read more about this? I was wondering if the same applies to adopted children. Does anyone have any comments on this subject?

Back to top
  Facebook it
Niall001 Niall001 has been starred
Stupendously Brilliant



Usergroups: None


Joined: 18 Sep 2003


Posts: 770

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: Male



PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:11 am    Post subject: --- Reply with quote
Ridley gets carried away sometimes. Its a very weak element in his argument.

There are just too many variables involved.
You are more likely to be a step-child if you are from a certain background because in the 'lower' socio-economic groups, divorce, pre-marital child birth etc. are more common occurances. If you are from a 'low' background, you are more likely to die young anyway.

If possible, it would be great if someone could do some in depth research on the matter, but we cannot use trust this figure to make any decisions as it stands.

Back to top
  Facebook it
PeterDF PeterDF has been starred
Freshman



Usergroups: None


Joined: 07 Jul 2003


Posts: 214

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: Male



PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: --- Reply with quote
Niall

65 times more likely? It sounds a pretty powerful argument to me.

Back to top
  Facebook it
PeterDF PeterDF has been starred
Freshman



Usergroups: None


Joined: 07 Jul 2003


Posts: 214

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: Male



PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: --- Reply with quote
I have been thinking about my last post and I think that, on reflection, it might be a good idea to enquire about what other factors are taken into account when these studies are quoted.

Back to top
  Facebook it
Niall001 Niall001 has been starred
Stupendously Brilliant



Usergroups: None


Joined: 18 Sep 2003


Posts: 770

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: Male



PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:40 am    Post subject: -- Reply with quote
Heres a few things that should be taken into consideration.

You are more likelyto be killed by somebody you know well. Most violent crimes are commited by men. There is a bigger chance that men will be step parents than women. It does not measure the cases in which natural parents and biological relatives collaberated with the step-parent before/during/after the killing.
Relationships between step-children and step-parents can be difficult for many reasons. I doubt that you will find the same statistics if you looked at cases of adoption.

Back to top
  Facebook it
tarav tarav has been starred
Stupendously Brilliant
BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor
Silver Contributor

Avatar

Usergroups: None


Joined: 19 Jun 2003


Posts: 750

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: Female
Location: NC


PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: --- Reply with quote
Niall,
I'm sure that you are correct in that there are other variables involved. Thank you for pointing this out. However, in my experience(as a teacher in America) I have not seen that there are more stepchildren in lower socioeconomic groups. My experience is limited of course, but I do know the occupations and marital status of around 50 parents every year. I actually see that there are more stepchildren among middle class families, than in lower socioeconomic families where often children are living with only the mother.

Back to top
  Facebook it
Chris OConnor Chris OConnor has been starred
Rhodes Scholar
BookTalk.org Owner

Avatar

Usergroups: None


Joined: 05 May 2002


Posts: 7225

Thanks
Given: 39
Received: 10 in 9 Posts

Gender: Male
Location: Florida
us.gif



PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:23 pm    Post subject: Re: --- Reply with quote
I think Niall has made an excellent point. Statistics can be very misleading when looked at in a vacuum. Stepchildren may die much more frequently than children living with their true parents, but we have to be cautious not to make a causal fallacy, more specifically, the complex cause fallacy. I do not see Ridley making a logical error, but he does leave the door open for readers to do so.

Because death may be more common in stepchildren is it fair to say that being a stepchild increases the odds of dying? Or are we simply assuming there is a direct cause and effect relationship where one really doesn't exist. I'm just not sure, but I tend to think that stepchildren do come from less than ideal backgrounds (as a general rule) and, therefore, have a much higher probability of receiving poor nutrition, supervision, love, attention, medical care, housing, education, etc...

Tara has some experience with this due to being a teacher, so I'll take her word that stepchildren tend to come from middleclass families. I was both a stepchild and a fosterchild ...and almost an adopted child, and I came from a middleclass background. During my years in fostercare I did see kids coming from all different backgrounds, but it seemed to be more came from lower class than middle class. Perhaps its different with stepchildren than fosterchildren. I do think that a properly designed statistical analysis that included foster kids into the mix would see foster kids as having the very highest level of childhood death. A stepchild or adopted child is probably receiving a degree of love from one or both parents, while a foster child is more or less abandoned and alone.

Anyway....good point Niall. As skeptics it is important to extend our skepticism to all claims...not just the wacky ones. I have reread what Matt Ridley said on page 215 and I don't see him making any logical fallacies. He presents the information and provides his source, which was Daly & Wilson's 1988 "Homicide." He really doesn't go too far with drawing inferences - instead allowing the reader to take the information and process it.

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."  -- Leonardo da Vinci

Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 10/24/03 11:30 pm
Back to top
  Facebook it
Display replies from:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BookTalk.org Forum Index -> Archived Book Discussions 2002-2003 -> The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature - by Matt Ridley  
Page 1 of 1


 
Recent Topics
» A Favorite Poem
by Saffron on Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:09 pm

» Atheists are my brothers and sisters of a different faith...
by Saffron on Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:06 pm

» Original Poetry
by Ashleigh on Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:55 pm

» Official Poll - Dec. 2008 & Jan. 2009 Fiction Book
by giselle on Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:14 pm

» Ch. 3: Spin
by realiz on Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:14 pm

» Ch. 4: The New Call
by DWill on Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:06 pm

» Intelligence
by Interbane on Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:31 pm

» The Dedication
by DWill on Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:10 pm

» Chapter 3: The Military Crisis
by DWill on Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:31 am

» Ch. 2: The Fall
by DWill on Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:54 am




BookTalk.org Suggests


The Spirit Man by Sean Murphy

Stupid Reasons People Die: An Ingenious Plot for Defusing Deadly Diseases by John Corso, M.D.

Wife In The North by Judith O'Reilly

Coyote's Guide to Connecting with Nature: For Kids of All Ages and Their Mentors by Young, Haas, McGown

The Myth of the Oil Crisis: Overcoming The Challenges of Depletion, Geopolitics, And Global Warming by Robin M . Mills


Additional Book Suggestions


Related Links

Poll
Do you plan to spend less this holiday season?

Yes [3]
No [2]

You must login to vote


BookTalk.org is a book discussion group, also known as a reading group or book club. We read and talk about non-fiction books, as a group. Live author chats where book group members can interact with and interview authors are common. We often give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys booktalk.  Booktalk is a free online reading group that features quality book reviews, resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. Non-fiction chat, book forum, literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today. Suggest nonfiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to plug their books or ask for an author chat or interview.

MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEABOUTBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSLINKSBLOGSFAQDONATECONTACT

BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power: The End of American ExceptionalismLolitaOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape: A Leading Primatologist Explains Why We Are Who We Are by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year-History of the Human Body by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window Into Human Nature by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael PollanI, Claudius : From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies: The Next Stage of History by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right by Al FrankenThe Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From the Big Bang To the 21st Century by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of Nature by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES
Baloney Detection KitBanned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2008. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca