Spare the rod, spare the child.

Damifino · Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:55 pm


	President Camacho wrote: Honestly, and this is something weird with me. No I don't think that a parent should do whatever they want with their kid but I think that until the kid can legally separate from his parents the parents should be able to kill them whenever they see fit. Chances are likely that it will be the nut jobs that will kill their nut job children. Nature vs. Nurture? They're crazy and they're being raised by crazy parents... I see a win/win here.

Well something we can agree on. You are weird!

Suzanne · Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:13 pm

Discipline is extremely important to raising children, children are like puppies, they need to learn who the pack leaders are, otherwise they will take that position. I also was spanked as a child, I got the dreaded hairbrush. But what I realized as a child was a sore ass was very little payment for my mischief so I felt free to mischieve. But what happens in this situation? The spankings get worse and worse, and can turn into a beating from exhausted and frustrated parents. This is why I don’t think spanking works, and how spanking can get out of control.

I do agree with Pres. about this “can’t fail” mentality that surrounds many children today. Sporting games that do not have winners is a good example of the “cannot fail” and the “cannot do anything wrong” mentality which surrounds many children. Take the other example of the kid running amok in the restaurant who is not being disciplined at all and combine that with the “cannot lose” mentality and what do you have? Teenagers running amok believing they can do anything because nothing they do is wrong. Besides, these kids are going to get one big dose of reality when they enter the real world. I think kids should know what it feels like to lose, because otherwise they won’t know what it really feels like to win.

Damifino · Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:16 pm


	realiz wrote: I think there are few of us who enjoy his bluntness and his not shying back from giving his opinions, exaggerated as they might be. If you step back from taking offence at his words, you can see his point.

I guess I got stooooooooped. That was the first time I have read one of his posts. Newbie and all. I still say it was rather rude.

Been in an abusive upbringing....I don't find the humour.

Suzanne · Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:25 pm

Well I for one am very proud to have my derogatory statement in President Camacho's signature!

Damifino · Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:30 pm

You mean this one?

"President Camacho should be banned immediately! Being hung drawn and quartered is too good for that degenerate!" Suzanne

giselle · Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:41 pm


	President Camacho wrote: My response was exaggerated but there is some truth in my backlash to people that stick their nose in the rearing of other's children when it's not necessary. I'd rather have someone who's unable to use psychology in order to restrain and guide their children, beat them. That's way more palatable to me than having to eat my dinner while a child goes zooming through the restaurant screaming.

Being blunt or provocative is fine, but this (and some other stuff written here) is just plain wrong. Who makes the decisions when a parent takes a child to a restaurant? The parent. The parent is in control, holds all the cards. The parent decides if the child is in a mood/state or other condition that is appropriate for taking him/her to a restaurant. The parent decides which restaurant, some are child appropriate and some are not. The parent decides what they will eat (some parents feed their kids food full of sugar and additives with terrible amd immediate behavior results). The parent decides how long they will sit (many kids can't sit still long enough for a restaurant situation). And so on.

If the parent fails at all of this, you are suggesting they should beat the child? How about other solutions? Like taking the kid out for a stroll in the parking lot while they wait for their food? Maybe bring along a baseball glove and ball. I've done this, it works. And it helps the parent take a deep breath too. Its not complex psychology and its not hard, its just common sense and caring for your child in a positive, loving way.

President Camacho · Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:55 pm

I think this would be a great Non-fiction book selection if there is a book which explores both sides of the coin.

Giselle, I agree on principle that parents 'should' be in control... but what if they refuse to take control and therefore are not in control? What would you have a public do who was forced to endure a brat's behavior? This is a form of neglect in my opinion that is more reproachable than beating your child to discipline them.

I WAS a child (in some ways I still am) and I WAS beaten. I know it works. Maybe you weren't beaten and that works for you. I haven't had kids but I've had dogs. To house break them, I beat them and it has worked every time. Last time I checked my dog still loves me and doesn't go in the house.

Why is there such a push to be so soft? Kids are tough and they can handle a little pop on the backside. Some really need it. No little spanking is going to harm most children for any length of time.

BTW, if I was a child and knew that I could have a game of catch every time I cried... you bet I'd remember to pull that string every time I felt like it. Maybe Giselle children are just sweeter than I was... maybe I was a different animal. Maybe we need to ask the Emu for a third opinion lol.

President Camacho · Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:01 am

In a classic study, three Harvard psychologists rated 379 mothers of kindergartneners on 150 different child-rearing practices (Sears, Maccoby, & Levin, 1957). Then 25 years later (this is what we call a longitudinal research study, because it follows a group of people over a long period of time), other Harvard psychologists contacted these children to evaluate how they turned out. Surprisingly, the psychologists found that their adult thinking and behavior was not influenced to a great extent by the specific child-rearing practices of their parents. What the study clearly showed, however, was that how parents felt about their children was very important. Children who felt loved and cared for were "happier and showed greater social and moral maturity as adults than those who felt rejected, neglected, or unwanted" (McClelland, Constantian, Regalado, & Stone, 1978, p. 53).

realiz · Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:36 pm


	Quote: What the study clearly showed, however, was that how parents felt about their children was very important. Children who felt loved and cared for were "happier and showed greater social and moral maturity as adults than those who felt rejected, neglected, or unwanted" (McClelland, Constantian, Regalado, & Stone, 1978, p. 53).

Absolutely true. This is the most important thing in child rearing.

kelstan · Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:27 pm

How ironic it is that you need a license to cut someone's HAIR, but any idiot can have and poorly raise another human being?

Robert Tulip · Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:01 pm


	President Camacho wrote: I think this whole issue is an awesome topic and is infinitely debatable. The best part about this debate is that it largely refrains from devolving into eristics. Why? Most want to know 'the right way' because raising a child is so very important to us all (or should be, right????). But we each have our own views based on our individual experiences and wish to defend them. Each person is different and each little person is a product of the two parents who raise them - both by nature and nurture. We can reach a common consensus that abuse and neglect aren't healthy and shouldn't be allowed but we can't agree on what is considered abuse or neglect. It's the gray areas that we have a hard time agreeing on the most and so to each their own in my opinion. Raising a child how you see fit IS freedom. Granted, I feel a child has very real 'natural rights'. I'm a firm believer in natural rights. Children are a product of you, a reflection of you, and you should be allowed to do whatever you feel is right to raise that child the way you wish... to a degree of course! That was a great post on parenting realiz. No, I don't have any children and I don't have any plans for them. I am a member of society, though. I don't feel I should have to suffer some other person's burden because they're too lazy to discipline their child. Spank them. They need it. I'll applaud you. When they graduate college, refrain from hard drugs, and succeed in life THEY'LL applaud you. I'd spank them for you but I'd go to jail. "It takes a community to raise a child." Whoever wrote that must have lived in a different time/place/planet.

Slightly less OTT than some of Camacho's other comments in this thread, but makes a good point of the perils of indulgent parenting.

Corporal punishment is about instilling values, letting children know through a short sharp shock that some behavior is unacceptable. While it is better never having to inflict pain, the consequence of indulgence of disobedience can be a creeping hooliganism. The end of instilling values justifies means that are proportionate and effective.

The problem starts with education. Schools need values and methods that celebrate ambition, competitive excellence and respect for established institutions. This should include a return to corporal punishment, with zero tolerance for the insidious culture of disrespect for learning. Cane one and make a hundred tremble and understand. The benefits for all those who learn will generally far outweigh any psychological harm to the one who is punished. Schools should support the authority of teachers and show that some behaviour is not acceptable. Otherwise we are on the path to the London riots.

President Camacho · Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:20 pm

That's pretty interesting. I'd never guess that you'd be a proponent of the rod. I don't know how I really feel about the state giving lashings. Maybe if the schools were private I would condone it. I don't think I could ever condone a public school giving a beating, though. No one should in my opinion. Every decision we make should have 'freedom' as a consideration. Allowing the state to beat children is just bad business. I might be ok with them withholding citizenship if the child fails to pass with the caveat that they'd have the option to go to private schools afterward for $$$ to earn it back.

I agree that there is a disrespect for learning but from my experience the kids DON'T KNOW that they don't have the proper respect for it. They don't know how desperately behind the power curve they are because the system rewards mediocrity and everyone has a chance to be mediocre if only their parent will make a phone call to the school and bitch.

Both my parents are teachers and my brother is a teacher. My Uncle is a teacher and my Aunt is a teacher. My Godfather was a teacher. I've had a chance to come in contact with many opinions on teaching. I hear it all the time... it gets worse and worse... and yet we move forward. People are smarter than they have ever been. I don't think capital punishment in schools is necessary. I think holding parents financially accountable and withholding privileges from young adults is by far more effective.

Robert Tulip · Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:30 am

Talk of "lashings" and "beating" just shows the emotive nature of this debate. You don't need to associate corporal punishment with the slaver's lash. I got caned quite a few times when I was at school, and it was an effective way of maintaining discipline, respect and authority. There were strict rules so caning did not cause physical damage, but it still stung like hell. Fear can be an effective motivator, especially in a dysfunctional environment. I have long been a fan of Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore, with his 'tremble and obey' Confucian ethic. Too much freedom produces delinquency.

Your suggestion of 'withholding citizenship' is far more punitive. Better to give a short sharp physical pain with no lasting consequences, and where others know what will happen to them if they commit the same error. Hooligans should not be allowed to prevent serious students from learning.

realiz · Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:48 pm


	Quote: Too much freedom produces delinquency.

This can be true when the freedom is without responsiblity and consequence. If someone, even a child, is free to make decisions, then they also have to suffer the consequences of those decisions.

I don't know if bringing back corporal punishment is the answer, but I agree that their is a problem in the schools that I see. There is this idea that because children who complete school do better in life, that if we can get them to stay in school, they will do better in life. Sounds very logical until you see the lengths that we have gone to achieve this. Kids are forgiven for just about everything in the mistaken belief that we are doing them a favour. Instead, we have a growing number of highschool graduates who are ill equipped for anything. Moving kids from one grade to the next when they have not completed the material, fail to show up for classes, and fail to have respect for the establishment is just a waste of everyone's time and money.

I think it is dangerous to put corporal punishment in the hands of those who do not have reason to care very deeply about the receiver of that punishment on an individual level. At least most parents do care.

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