Some more resources

Saint Gasoline · Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: Some more resources

Here are some online resources from creationists and scientists opposed to creationism for additional reading.

Creationist Sites:
Answers in Genesis (I especially like their ridiculous "If you don't matter to God, you don't matter to anyone" slogan. Apparently they've never read the Old Testament and don't realize Genesis portrays a tribal deity more concerned with his own well-being than with humaniy.)

Dr. Dino (This is Kent Hovind's site. He's the guy building a Creationist Museum depicting men and dinosaurs living together.)

Reasons To Believe (This is Hugh Ross's web site.)

Uncommon Descent (A blog featuring writings primarily by Dembski and other ID cronies.)

Criticism of Creationists Sites:
TalkOrigins (A comprehensive critique of all the common creationist arguments against evolution.)

Video featuring Ken Miller Debunking ID

A Short Documentary on Intelligent Design Movements in America

The Panda's Thumb (Blogs critiquing Intelligent Design.)

TreeEng · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Some more resources

Wow, the Answers in Genesis site has lots of ridiculous statements! Here's one I like:
"I understand that the Bible is a revelation from our infinite Creator, and it is self-authenticating and self-attesting. I must interpret Scripture with Scripture, not impose ideas from the outside! When I take the plain words of the Bible, it is obvious there was no death, bloodshed, disease or suffering of humans or animals before sin. God instituted death and bloodshed because of sin—this is foundational to the Gospel. Therefore, one cannot allow a fossil record of millions of years of death, bloodshed, disease and suffering before sin (which is why the fossil record makes much more sense as the graveyard of the flood of Noah’s day)."

Chris OConnor · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Some more resources

Dr. Dino's site has an essay about how wisdom teeth do not support the idea that humans evolved. I'll try to handle this one calmly, but it sure is challenging for me. When the chief spokespeople for creationism are so amazingly ignorant it takes quite a bit of restraint to stay calm.

Quote:
The existence of wisdom teeth may very well take top dishonors as an alleged proof of evolution in the form of a vestigial human body part. It is stated that at one time in our alleged evolution we had more room in our mouths. It also has been suggested that we had to chew more than we do today. Both of these statements may be plausible, however they do not prove or even suggest that we are evolving. These teeth still function for chewing and are by no means useless or vestigial. The lack of space in the mouths of certain people - and by no means all people - is a consequence of the degeneration of the human race in regard to both genetics and lifestyles. This is quite contrary to the concept of evolution, which implies that we are improving and adding features.

For those of you that understand the basics of evolutionary theory which of the above sentences stands out as completely false? The error lies in the last sentence, which is the most important of the paragraph. Here the author improperly defines evolution to mean "improving and adding features." I shouldn't have to go on and explain how this is wrong, but these types of statements demonstrate to me why the average theist that believes in creationism is so misled and science-illiterate.

Link to the full article

Chris OConnor · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Some more resources

On Dr. Dino's site I read the following "testimonial"

Quote:
Dr. Hovind, My brother helped lead me to the Lord and I was saved on February 3, this year. He bought your video series when you visited our church several years ago (Wick Road Baptist Church, Taylor, MI). I have recently been watching them, and have ordered the updated series. I can not quit watching them. My main purpose for ordering them is to copy them and hand them out to my friends and family and anyone else I can get to watch them. I have been searching and praying for the knowledge and tools to help me lead people to Jesus, and I think these videos are my answer. I just want to say thank you for speaking the truth and for providing these tools so that I can help give people the truth.

This is why we cannot sit back and allow creationism to be slowly injected into schools. It isn't like creationists are sitting passive themselves. The ignorance spreads like a virus from one empty head to the next. Anyone suffering or longing for "more" in life is subject to the virus.

Chris OConnor · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Some more resources

By the way Kent Hovind has fake academic credentials. Most of us already knew this, but for newcomers or those that support creationism you need to know that you will be hard-pressed to find credible scientists that support ID.

Read this

Quote:
The self-styled "Dr. Dino" (whose Ph.D, from an unaccredited university, is in Christian education)

Chris OConnor · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Some more resources

Quote:
Hovind has been charged with 58 federal crimes, including separate counts of making threats against federal officials, filing false complaints and tax evasion.

Chris OConnor · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Some more resources

Quote:
According to the IRS, Hovind "has made deposits to bank accounts well in excess of $1 million per year."

He is becoming rich off of the ignorance of the masses. But freedom of speach...

Chris OConnor · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Some more resources

Quote:
Education
In 1974, Hovind received a bachelor's degree in religious education from the unaccredited Midwestern Baptist College.[2] In 1988 and 1991 respectively, Hovind was awarded a masters's degree and doctorate in "Christian Education" from the unaccredited correspondence school Patriot University (now Patriot Bible University) in Colorado.

Critics of Hovind have charged that Patriot Bible University is a diploma mill, as it has unreasonably low graduation requirements, lack of sufficient faculty or educational standards, and a suspicious tuition scheme, among other issues.[3] The college posts a FAQ that states that accrediation of Bible colleges, seminaries, or universities is "voluntary".[6] The school's current policies allow students to attain bachelor's degrees, master's degrees and even "Doctor of Ministry" degrees in months, rather than years, for as little as $25 per month. (The university offers a monthly fee, unlike most universities, which only charge per-credit fees.[7]) Beginning in 2004 Patriot Bible University was authorized by the State of Colorado Higher Education Commission to issue religious degrees. (Hovind received his degree, in education, in 1991.)

Patriot Bible University will not send copies of Hovind's doctoral dissertation except with his permission. [8] Doctoral dissertations are normally published by the associated university and made available to the public, so that other students conducting research in similar areas may use the information in the dissertation as a reference. Although one copy of the dissertation is on file at the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) in Berkeley, CA, NCSE is not able to provide it on request because of copyright and distribution restrictions.[citation needed]

Various criticisms have been made of his dissertation, including charges of incompleteness, low academic quality, poor writing , poor spelling, and ungrammatical style [8] [9] Barbara Forrest, "an outspoken critic of intelligent design," claims that Hovind's lack of scientific training makes it impossible to engage him on a professional level. [1 When questioned about his education and qualification, Hovind has claimed that the arguments are ad hominem attacks.[11] The institution where he got his PhD has made similar comments.[12]

MadArchitect · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Some more resources

TreeEng quotes the Answers in Genesis site: "I understand that the Bible is a revelation from our infinite Creator, and it is self-authenticating and self-attesting."

I wonder how they support (or even structure) the argument that the Bible is "self-authenticating and self-attesting".

"I must interpret Scripture with Scripture, not impose ideas from the outside!"

Does anyone do that?

Chris OConnor : When the chief spokespeople for creationism are so amazingly ignorant it takes quite a bit of restraint to stay calm.

Whether or not Dr. Dino qualifies as one of the chief spokespeople for creationism depends on who you talk to, I suppose. According to Kent Hovind's FAQ, for example, "It should be noted that many of his fellow young-earthers consider him to be an embarrasment and that many of his arguments can be found in Arguments we think creationists should NOT use published by the young-earth creationist organization Answers in Genesis." Not that I would apologize for any of the arguments or tactics used by Creationists, but I think we make it entirely too easy to lump them all in together, as though it were a single, monolithic movement. In fact, one of the things I meant to do yesterday was start a post on the different movements within Creationism....

Saint Gasoline · Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: Some more resources

To be sure, Hovind is probably the stupidest of the creationist bunch, as well as the most dislikeable.

Of course, gems of stupidity can be found in most of these creationist sites. Answers in Genesis's quote from Chris above only seems to betray an unfamiliarity with the Bible--because the Bible contradicts itself on many counts, so how can it be self-authenticating if it doesn't even cohere from one verse to the next? And how could one call it self-authenticating if it contradicts empirical facts in archaeology an science? I suppose they take the Bible as a sort of foundational belief, ala Plantinga.

MadArchitect · Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:19 am Post subject: Re: Some more resources

Even if it weren't laced with contradictions, how could any document be "self-authenticating"? I just don't get the term itself.


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