SMALL MIRACLES

lizzeri · Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: SMALL MIRACLES

SMALL MIRACLES - by Askin Ozcan ISBN1698001000
Outskirts Press Inc.
true stunning stories of small miracles.
outskirtspress.com/smallmiracles

LanDroid · Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: SMALL MIRACLES

Considering the scale of what could be done, seems like regenerating a lost limb after prayer would qualify as a small miracle.

lizzeri · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: Re: SMALL MIRACLES

Replacing of a limb would be a very very very big miracle. Not impossible, worth a try. There is never a guarantee with miracles or small miracles or with life itself, but these happen
all the time...
Not everything is physical, although many physical, social, economic small miracles have happened to this author- and not always by praying, even sometimes without praying...If you read the book, you will understand.
Small miracles happen to everyone. This author has written about thirty such phenomenon which have happened to him.
We do not know the entire rules of the nature, therefore can not know the nature and scope and the reasons of the small miracles. When they happen, why they happen, under what conditions they happen...But we know that they happen, as
so many have witnessed them. The life is itself a miracle! A big one !
Best regards
lizzeri

Edited by: lizzeri at: 1/4/07 8:44 am

lizzeri · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: Re: SMALL MIRACLES

There is a much bigger heap of evidence that prayers are very useful. It is a matter of experiencing them yourself, and listening to others who have experienced them and reading about them. There are thousands of volumes telling the consequences of praying.
There are 2,5 billion Christians, 1,5 billion Moslems praying everyday. 95% of the world's population believe in God.
It is a matter of getting the chance to learn about God and
praying.
Best regards
lizzeri

Edited by: lizzeri at: 1/4/07 8:58 am

Chris OConnor · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: Re: SMALL MIRACLES

Quote:
There is never a guarantee they happen by praying.

Actually, there is a heap of evidence, both personal and scientific, that supports the idea that prayer is completely useless.

Chris OConnor · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: SMALL MIRACLES

Yes, there sure are a lot of believers. But the most intelligent and educated people on this planet lean towards atheism.

lizzeri · Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: SMALL MIRACLES

You are completely wrong. The most educated people do not lean to atheism at all. They accept God and religion and sciences and arts. Here are a few examples:

Einstein : Religion without science is blindness, science without religion is shear paralysis.

George Sale : Koran is a constant miracle.

Prof. Thomas Warnold: Koran makes people civilized, encourages technology, commerce, sciences.

Lavazon: There is a perfect harmony between Koran and the sciences.

Goethe: The basics Koran teaches do not betray even a little.
Mankind can not surpass Koran with all her systems.

Prof. Edvard Mote: Koran is the source of development.

H.C.Wells: There are few people in Europe who have deeply studied the Holy Koran. Those who call it primitive, are themselves ignorant.

Until recently the medical sciences thought there was no blood in the first (inception) stage of the human embryo.
Swedish photographer Nilsson enlarged the picture of the
embryo 400.00 times and proved to the scientists that they were wrong, as there was blood in the first stage of the human embryo. Koran was already talking about the blood in the first( inception) stage of the human embryo in 640...
There are very many such information in the Koran (and in the
other books of God) which led the scientists in their work, or
were much in advance of the scientific proofs of the same facts. These are only a few examples...There are examples from the fields of astronomy, agriculture, geology, meteorology, psychology, sociology, ...Consult an Islamic
Organisation in the USA or U.K. or wherever you are...
The other religions of God are equally valuable sources of knowledge.
The truth is, religions have been misunderstood and used for
political and economic profitism throughout the human history.
This was and is what is wrong. This is still being done.
---
Atheism is simply ignorance about the nature's qualities. Such a wonderful and harmonius collection of living creatures, with perfectly functioning physiologies can not be an accident,
they are a product of a superior intelligence and wisdom and knowledge and creator. Even, Marx accepts this superior system, The God. Evolution theory of Darwin fits in perfectly well with what Koran says: "We created all living creatures from a single cell!" If Bible is unclear on that, is because it came in a time when human beings were not sufficiently developped intellectually perhaps. But, even Bible is great when it says: "NO one will come to me in darkness!" - encouraging and supporting knowledge.
Thank you
Best regards
Lizzeri

Edited by: lizzeri at: 1/10/07 5:55 pm

Frank 013 · Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: SMALL MIRACLES

Lizzeri

Quote:
Replacing of a limb would be a very, very, very big miracle. Not impossible, worth a try. There is never a guarantee with miracles or small miracles or with life itself, but these happen all the time...

I believe what LanDroid was referring to is that it should be a small matter for an almighty creator to regenerate a lost limb, but prayer has a 100% failure rate in this situation. Why would god be so merciless to those that lost their limbs?

Lizzeri

Quote:
There is a much bigger heap of evidence that prayers are very useful.

What you are considering evidence is what we call accepting false positives. When the numbers are looked at honestly prayer is no more beneficial than wishing to a star, and what some people count as miraculous is just asinine.

Lizzeri

Quote:
It is a matter of getting the chance to learn about God and praying.

You seem to think that Atheists have never studied religion. The fact is that many of us have studied religion intensely; some of us even have religious backgrounds. We all find religion to be unappealing to us, and we still live complete satisfying lives.

Lizzeri

Quote:
You are completely wrong. The most educated people do not lean to atheism at all.

Chris was making a general statement that the more educated tend towards atheism, this is in fact true. There are always some few exceptions, especially when looking back into history. Atheism is not a popular position today but just 50 years ago it was even less popular. Declaring yourself an atheist in Einstein’s time would be occupational suicide. Furthermore science had yet to explain many of the more mysterious questions so the god idea had plenty of room to exist in. So the fact remains that educated people more often reject religion and become atheistic.

Lizzeri

Quote:
There are very many such information in the Koran (and in the other books of God) which led the scientists in their work, or were much in advance of the scientific proofs of the same facts. These are only a few examples...There are examples from the fields of astronomy, agriculture, geology, meteorology, psychology, sociology.

There are far more inaccurate statements from holy books than there are accurate ones. Once again you are pointing to false positives (counting successes and ignoring failures) my favorite from the Koran is the sun hiding in a mud hole at night and there were people there... ha!

Lizzeri

Quote:
Atheism is simply ignorance about the nature's qualities.

Atheists generally have far superior knowledge of the workings of nature than theists, we in fact see the whole picture not just the sunny side.

Lizzeri

Quote:
Such a wonderful and harmonious collection of living creatures, with perfectly functioning physiologies can not be an accident, they are a product of a superior intelligence and wisdom and knowledge and creator.

Actually science has shown that no god was necessary. There are guiding forces but they do not point to any sort of god, these forces are constant necessary and unforgiving.

Later

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: SMALL MIRACLES

Quote:
I think we can be pretty sure that if there were a god it would never reveal itself to such a degree that there could be no doubt of its existance.

HOW!? HOW can we be pretty sure? Why would we think this? You are obviously just making this shit up based on what you want to believe. IF there was a god that could hide it's existence from us, HOW can YOU presume to know anything about it?

YOU are the douchebag.

Mr. P.

Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!

Mr. P's Bookshelf.

I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Edited by: misterpessimistic at: 1/11/07 8:26 pm

MaesterAuron151 · Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: SMALL MIRACLES

Quote:
I believe what LanDroid was referring to is that it should be a small matter for an almighty creator to regenerate a lost limb, but prayer has a 100% failure rate in this situation. Why would god be so merciless to those that lost their limbs?

Haven't we been over this? I think we can be pretty sure that if there were a god it would never reveal itself to such a degree that there could be no doubt of its existance. If it did either free will would be abolished and we'd all submit to this god, or we'd become violently fervent in our search for the proper way to worship this god that we'd end up murdering each other. Unless of course this god first proved its existance then told us what to do in which case we'd go back to scenario one.

Ok let me rephrase that, if there were a god and it revealed itself to such a degree that it would be unquestionable, that god would either be ignorant of human nature or a douch bag.

Quote:

What you are considering evidence is what we call accepting false positives. When the numbers are looked at honestly prayer is no more beneficial than wishing to a star, and what some people count as miraculous is just asinine.

I've heard people who belong to religeous groups live longer on average.

Quote:
You seem to think that Atheists have never studied religion. The fact is that many of us have studied religion intensely; some of us even have religious backgrounds. We all find religion to be unappealing to us, and we still live complete satisfying lives.

Good for you I support that 100% what I can't stand is when people assume that because they're satisfied they must have found the answer, then take it upon themselves to make sure everyone else follows that same conclusion. Isn't that what you hate most about religeous groups. Isn't the dogmatism the really bad part? I don't think there are any conclusions, fighting over them is simply destructive.

Quote:
Chris was making a general statement that the more educated tend towards atheism, this is in fact true. There are always some few exceptions, especially when looking back into history. Atheism is not a popular position today but just 50 years ago it was even less popular.
Declaring yourself an atheist in Einstein’s time would be occupational suicide.

Which would be a good explaination if he simply denied being an athiest. However it seems that he spoke openly against athiesm. I suppose it would have been a popular position but where all the scientists at the time makeing a big deal out of rejecting athiesm?

Quote:
So the fact remains that educated people more often reject religion and become atheistic.

I think you should offer up some statistics here. I know its virtually impossible to find accurate data on this subject since often someone is creating a trend bias to support one possition or another.

Quote:
Furthermore science had yet to explain many of the more mysterious questions so the god idea had plenty of room to exist in.

You know I've thought a lot about this stuff and in general I don't see most of the arguments and counter arguments reguarding religeon to be concluded by any given scientific discoverys.

I think in general intelegent well educated religeous people sort of throw a wrench into the whole religeon is part of poor education theory.

Like the cosmological. It can be countered with or without evolution. Evolution simply adds doezns more steps that lead to the same thing. The cosmological argument essencially comes down to "if there's no god then where did all this come from?", Using only knowledge a stone age person might have I can still answer the question, "it was always here,".

MaesterAuron151 · Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: SMALL MIRACLES

Quote:
HOW!? HOW can we be pretty sure? Why would we think this? You are obviously just making this shit up based on what you want to believe. IF there was a god that could hide it's existence from us, HOW can YOU presume to know anything about it?

YOU are the douchebag.

Ok I think you stopped reading because I explained all this right after that. You didn't refute any of the actual substance of the post.

Ok lets say there's some sort of mass miracle that proves there's a god beyond all doubt every now believes in god. That single act of gods has taken away a level of free will.

Now of course many people will believe that this god needs to be apleased. After all it revealed itself that suggests it wants everyone to know of it. The miracle proved the god to be intelegent (otherwise it wouldn't really be a god), and all our knowledge of intelegent beings show that they inherently have desires and motivations. Now since this miracle also proved god to be extremely powerful (another quality thats pretty much required for it to be a god) it would seem a good idea to try and fufil this gods desires. So people will start trying things. Most likely things from relgions. I think we all know that religeous doctrines all have some very bad things to try. So a new wave of religeous dogmatism sweeps the earth this one more violent then ever because now we know there's a god and are trying to figure out what it wants so as not to invoke its wrath.

I think that sounds like a pretty bad situation.

Now there's another possibility. This miracle in addition to proving there's a god states exactly what it wants. Well nwo human beings no exactly what to do, we have no free will (or the illusion of it). We become puppets of some supreme puppeteer.

Also not a very good situation.

Frank 013 · Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: Re: SMALL MIRACLES

MeasterAuron

Quote:
hmm close but still not quite there.

Really, they outlived the western races by several decades because of those practices, heck on average they still do.

Even if it was a religious practice historically it isn't now, and it still offers better results than prayer.

MeasterAuron

Quote:
Not really, they just add another step on the endless argument that is a poorly played cosmological. It actually hurts the counter because you're distracted from the actual methods in which the counter is used.

That’s your opinion but the fact remains that atheism is the fastest growing belief in the US today and it is partly due to those arguments that you find so confusing.

MeasterAuron

Quote:
Cockroaches have almost zero chance of outliving the earth; we on the other hand have a rather good one considering we already have space flight.

You seem to forget that EVERYWHERE humans go insects eventually go with us.

MeasterAuron

Quote:
Oh ok. What was that part about again?

My moral superiority over most Christians.

MeasterAuron

Quote:
Umm this is a field of science.

Unless you are saying that because these scientists are theists they are fudging the data, then I don't care either way. Because like I said before if their belief does not affect their work ethic then I my care factor is zero.

MeasterAuron

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It’s still not a very good test sampling. Is this an in person meeting or did you talk to them on boards like this one?

I know all of these people personally, some I know from work some are friends of friends.

MeasterAuron

Quote:
I didn't say they had a 60% majority. I said those that believe in a personal god have 40%. I would expect a large percentage to be pantheist or deist.

From the studies I have read there were almost no theists among scientists, nearly all were either atheist or agnostic, I can’t remember the actual number right now but it was in the ninety something percent. Now these were primarily biologists, physicists, evolutionary biologists, and geologists leaving out many areas of study. So if you add in all of the other sciences you will probably get a more diluted number.

I have no idea what that might be though.

MeasterAuron

Quote:
What numbers?

The numbers of surviving believers.

In an area where they are being persecuted people hide and do things secretly, just as our friend the cockroach needs just one survivor to spread its species so it is with a religion.

As long as one person kept quiet or hidden it is almost guaranteed that they will eventually find others of like mind and spread the word.

Remember during the early days of Christianity they were hunted but they spread their word in secret and orally so there was no trace. It was never possible for the Roman authorities to have found them all and killed them.

MeasterAuron

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What's wasted?

The entire evolutionary process of the extinct species.

The hundreds of thousands of life forms that die before a successful mutation can manifest (assuming that it does in time)

MeasterAuron

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What truly dies?

Every life.

MeasterAuron

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Not really. The real world evidence gets shot down with the question "and what causes that". No matter how much science advances there will always be that question. Philosophy simply eliminates the argument in general.

Really, then why have so many people clung to the belief? Only recently (since science has offered an alternative) has the general populace begun to move away from religion.

What science offers is to show people what happened, how it happened and they are even encouraged to test the ideas themselves therefore witnessing the conclusion.

How is that not a better argument?

Later

Edited by: Frank 013 at: 1/15/07 2:28 am


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