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Satan, Venus, Christ and the Gas Giants: A Miltonic Parable 
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When T S Elliot wrote:-

I have measured out my life in coffee spoons:

We all know what he meant....

We didn't say, 'How many coffee spoons'?
or, 'Well, what was the exact cubic capacity of the coffee spoons?'

We tell ourselves stories....to help us to understand the question..

What are we doing here?

The stories are not scientific......because science is asking a different question?

Note the question mark. I'm not intending to intrude on a debate which is somewhat above my head.

Well....more than somewhat......but I'm doing my best for the proletariat


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Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:38 pm
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Penelope wrote:
The stories are not scientific......because science is asking a different question?


All you need to be scientific is decimal points :)

While the roof is off
Geometry of rafters
Frames Venus's rays



Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:20 pm
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I have no problem with Elliot's saying. I also have no problem with the ideas of Alpha's and Omega's and numerical coincidences given names, or celestial signs, or any number of other things we see or use to help us understand the cosmos. I would have a problem if Elliot said that he had used 1,111 coffee spoon and thus there was a real connection to Jesus Christ. Then I would start asking questions about capacities and such, because as a claim, critical examination is required. The difference is I'm not asking about measurements from Robert in a scientific light, I'm asking philosophical questions in a non-scientific light.



Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:22 pm
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Thomas Hood wrote:
To play devil's advocate, or Venus's as the case may be: Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune are in conjunction every 178.9 years. Conjunction means alignment as viewed from the earth, but astrologers allow themselves an 8 degree range. How exact is this alignment of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune every 178.9 years?
Tom, thanks for your questions. I can explain the science in some detail if you like. Conjunctions between outer planets are the same for geocentric and heliocentric frames. A picture here shows the position of the sun against the solar system centre of mass over 2000 years. The peaks and troughs are due to the 178.9 year Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune cycle. An example of the cycles of the triple conjunctions of these three planets is as follows and here. In 54AD, a Jupiter Saturn conjunction in Pisces followed the conjunctions with Neptune by two months for Jupiter and a year for Saturn. Successive 179 year repeats of this event, with tropical signs, are in 232-3 (Aries), 411 (Taurus), 590 (Gemini), 769 (Cancer/Leo), 948 (Virgo), 1127 (Libra), 1306-7 (Scorpio), 1484-7 (Sagittarius), 1663-7 (Capricorn), 1842-6 (Aquarius), and 2021-5 (Pisces). However, due to precession the triple conjunction next decade is sidereally in Aquarius. Over this cycle, the gap between the JS conjunction and their respective conjunctions with Neptune steadily decreases to a point where these three are near exactly conjunct in 769, after which JS meet an increasing time before they reach Neptune, with the gap increasing by 0.3 years per event. This pattern overlaps with other families of JSN conjunctions, for example 1344-5, 1523-4, 1702-3, 1881-2, 2060-1. This 1344-2060 group has 1523 as the year of closest JSN alignment in Pisces, with the JS conjunction precessing against the JN and SN dates as in the 54-2021 series. In all cases each event is about 30° further along the ecliptic than its predecessor 179 years before.

These families of repeating conjunctions are produced by the small difference in orbital periods with 9 x JS=178.7 ~= 14 x JN = 178.9 ~= 5 x SN = 179.3 years, averaging 178.9. These orbital JSN periods produce a clear gravitational pattern in the wave function of the solar system barycentre as shown at the link above.
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And why should this contingency of observation have anything to do with the earth's wobble?
It is exactly a 1/144 fraction of the 25764 year long period of the earth's wobble.
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What does "with error 0.3 years" mean? What error? 0.3 years = 3.6 months, quite a bit of maneuver room.
Explained above.
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Did you discover the Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune conjunction every 178.9 years or that this period of conjunction times 12 equals 2147 ? Or both?
The first point is an obvious if unremarked piece of astronomy. I noticed the apparent harmony with the earth's wobble. The JSN cycle seems like a whip entraining the earth as it spins like a wobbling top, except that the earth's wobble is explained by the sun and moon in a phenomenon known as lunisolar torque. I suspect there is a deeper undiscovered 'harmony of the spheres' holding the whole system in balance.
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RT“There is a near-precise harmony between the periods of the gas giants and the long term cycle of the earth.” Do you mean that a Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune conjunction occurs at or near the date the sun enters a new zodiacal sign at the spring equinox? That is, did a conjunction occur in the year 0 when the sun is supposed to have moved into Pisces ? If a conjunction does not occur when the sun enters a new sign, why should there be any relation between the Great Year and the period of conjunction?
Dane Rudhyar in his book Astrological Timing assumes the period is 180 years and calls this period the 'house of the age'. He was scientifically slightly inaccurate as the period is 178.9 years. The graphs linked above show the sign position of a series of JSN conjunctions, each within a successive sign but not at the exact cusp points except in 769.
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Why is the Age of Pisces the Alpha and Omega of the Great Year? Why isn't the Age of Aries the the Alpha and Omega of the Great Year?
You misread my point. The Great Year is a cycle of twelve Ages which for convenience we can say start with Pisces and end with Aries. This cycle has happened 175,000 times since the dawn of life. My speculation that this cycle has a structure is based on the idea that the macrocosm reflects the microcosm, so the Great Year reflects the northern hemisphere terrestrial year, which of course starts with Aries in spring and ends with Pisces in winter. The point between Aries and Pisces is the vernal equinox, which on this model corresponds to the time of Christ. I discuss this in some more depth in essays here, here and here
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RT "More than this, the Age of Pisces is also the Age of Virgo, because there are two equinoxes at spring and autumn in these signs each year." Symbolism is very flexible. For example, if we begin with the Age of Aries, (the Lamb of God) then the second equinox occurs in Libra, in which Christ reconciles us to the Law. Christianity is so rich in symbolism that any pair chosen for equinoxes would make sense.
But Christ came at the end of the Age of Aries/Libra and the start of the Age of Pisces/Virgo. I agree, as discussed in the first essay just linked, that Christ incarnated the spirit of the full cycle, but the age of Christianity has a definite Pisces/Virgo quality. For example the Gothic Cathedrals of France, planned and built at the high point of the age, are laid out on a map corresponding to the stars of Virgo and dedicated to Beata Virgo Maria.
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"The time of Christ, the year 0, the beginning of the Age of Pisces, was in a sense the Alpha and Omega of the Great Year, the end of one cycle after the preceding Age of Aries and the beginning of a new 25764 year astronomical cycle. So there is congruence between the title of Christ as Alpha and Omega and this astronomical observation." A cycle is a circle, and a circle may be begun at any point.
Yes true, which is why my myth is not fully scientific, even though my claim that the circle does have a start and end (as does the natural year) is scientifically possible.
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"But what of Christ?"Christ as logos represents cosmic order of any sort.
I am simply pointing out that there is a main real cosmic order in our solar system which correlates to biblical ideas of the age presented by Christ.
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"The moral of this story is that our planet is in harmony with solar system cycles."I doubt that the Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune conjunction proves that the story has a moral or that the wobble of the earth is in harmony with solar system cycles. I do, however, think precession may be important. The earth's wobble is a possible reason for the cycle of glaciers. Mythologically, the discovery of precession is supposed to be the reason for Mithraism that Christianity replaced. So Christ too may be taken as the slayer of the horned beast.
YOu are confusing precession with the Milankovich cycle of climate. I pointed out there is an actual harmony of ratio 1/144. This is equal to a low C against a high D.



Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:05 am
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Robert Tulip wrote:
Tom, thanks for your questions. I can explain the science in some detail if you like.


If I am not mistaken, Robert, your view on conjunction is a poetic interpretation of the heavens and basically does not depend on science. The image of the Gas Giants whipping the earth like a top is delightful. And I find that you have set this image to music too. I think your view would get a better hearing if you presented it as a poetic interpretation, which I think is a valuable thing. It makes the world a friendly place.

I have not found anything on the Internet about a Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune conjunction, and have even asked a professional astrologer, and he didn't know about it, so the topic is indeed rare. The term "triple conjunction" does not refer to three planets in conjunction but to a sequence of three conjunctions of two planets because of retrograde motion:

"A triple conjunction is an astronomical event, where two planets or a planet and a star meet each other three times in a short period . . . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_conjunction

About this:

>Did you discover the Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune conjunction every 178.9 years or that this period of conjunction times 12 equals 2147 ? Or both?

First you say "The first point is an obvious if unremarked piece of astronomy" and then you say "Dane Rudhyar in his book Astrological Timing assumes the period is 180 years and calls this period the 'house of the age'" so I suppose the period was in use by Rudhyar but has not been held to be significant by astronomers. And then you say "My speculation that this cycle [Great Year] has a structure" I think means that you are the one who related the Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune conjunction to the Great Year. And I think you made this connection because the next JSN conjunction sometimes occurs in the sign the sun has moved into, as happen when the sun moved into Pisces in the year 0. The next JSN conjunction occurred in Pisces 53 years later.

Is it a general rule that the first JSN conjunction after the sun moves into a new sign is in that same sign?

Tom



Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:39 pm
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Tom Said:

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Lovely thought
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Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:19 pm
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Thomas Hood wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:
Tom, thanks for your questions. I can explain the science in some detail if you like.
If I am not mistaken, Robert, your view on conjunction is a poetic interpretation of the heavens and basically does not depend on science.
Hi Tom, many thanks for staying with me through this mind-bending material on the Jesus-gas giant side of this thread. You are mistaken here, because my view on conjunction is purely scientific. The three gas giants form a straight line to the sun every 179 years. I earlier mentioned this at http://www.booktalk.org/outer-planets-b ... t4585.html
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The image of the Gas Giants whipping the earth like a top is delightful.
Thank you. As I explained, this is a poetic image which I believe is scientifically possible at some level.
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And I find that you have set this image to music too.
Yes, see http://www.booktalk.org/harmony-of-the- ... t5356.html and http://www.purevolume.com/RobertTulip Wait till my real music is discovered!
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I think your view would get a better hearing if you presented it as a poetic interpretation, which I think is a valuable thing. It makes the world a friendly place.
It is a poetic science, and indeed you are right that it helps to make the world a friendly place. A sort of gracious cosmic providence.
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I have not found anything on the Internet about a Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune conjunction, and have even asked a professional astrologer, and he didn't know about it, so the topic is indeed rare.
Correct. I have independently researched it as an explanation of the real structure of time.
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The term "triple conjunction" does not refer to three planets in conjunction but to a sequence of three conjunctions of two planets because of retrograde motion: "A triple conjunction is an astronomical event, where two planets or a planet and a star meet each other three times in a short period . . . ." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_conjunction
That is one sort of triple conjunction, due to apparent retrograde motion of the outer planets from the terrestrial perspective. The other sort which I am describing is also totally scientifically legitimate, like the current morning triple conjunction between Mercury, Mars and Jupiter. On 23 Feb it was a quadruple conjunction with the moon! The JSN cycle is heliocentric though, whereas retrograde is purely geocentric.
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About this:>Did you discover the Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune conjunction every 178.9 years or that this period of conjunction times 12 equals 2147 ? Or both? < First you say "The first point is an obvious if unremarked piece of astronomy" and then you say "Dane Rudhyar in his book Astrological Timing assumes the period is 180 years and calls this period the 'house of the age'" so I suppose the period was in use by Rudhyar but has not been held to be significant by astronomers.
The JSN cycle is obvious but generally unknown. Rudhyar’s 180 year period was just based on division of the tradition 2160 year estimate for the Age – which incidentally is the sum of the degrees in the angles of a cube, such as in the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21:16. He did not know that the actual period of the Age is 2147 years, based on astronomy, or that this corresponds to twelve JSN conjunctions. My hypothesis is that the harmony between the earth’s precessional wobble and the JSN cycle is a complex astronomical resonance, like the 3:2 resonance between Neptune and Pluto, but this view is disputed.
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And then you say "My speculation that this cycle [Great Year] has a structure" I think means that you are the one who related the Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune conjunction to the Great Year. And I think you made this connection because the next JSN conjunction sometimes occurs in the sign the sun has moved into, as happen when the sun moved into Pisces in the year 0. The next JSN conjunction occurred in Pisces 53 years later. Is it a general rule that the first JSN conjunction after the sun moves into a new sign is in that same sign?Tom
It is a happy coincidence that the houses of the Age of Pisces correspond so neatly to the JSN houses, as such correspondence (ie the house of Pisces starting in 54AD) will not apply in the Age of Aquarius, although of course the JSN house cycle is permanent. This coincidence is not a necessary condition for the correspondence between the JSN cycle and the house of the age, which applies permanently (ie over millions or possibly billions of years). As noted above, this 178.9 year cycle is displayed in the central structure of the solar system, the rhythm of the sun’s distance from the centre of mass. I now have 6000 years of data on this from NASA. Research would need to expand the study of the JSN cycle to other Ages to examine longer sign patterns, as so far I have only looked at the Age of Pisces and the beginning of the Age of Aquarius.



Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:35 pm
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RT: "It is a poetic science, and indeed you are right that it helps to make the world a friendly place. A sort of gracious cosmic providence."

If it is science, then you have a falsifiable hypothesis?



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Interbane wrote:
RT: "It is a poetic science, and indeed you are right that it helps to make the world a friendly place. A sort of gracious cosmic providence." If it is science, then you have a falsifiable hypothesis?
That the Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune cycle is 1/144th of the earth's precessional cycle is falsifiable. That the series of apparent allusions to precession in the Bible do in fact refer to precession is not falsifiable, but I argue the reference to precession is the most coherent, plausible and parsimonious explanation. The link between Satan and Venus is primarily poetic, although it has a possible deeper intuitive dimension which one day could maybe become scientific.



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Frank 013 wrote:
The problem here is that you are using the modern commonly accepted definition of Satan which was developed over hundreds of years. The original Satan was a title for an angel who spoke to the records of the sins of the people who were being considered for admittance into heaven, who was a trusted aid of god (a prosecutor) who acted under the direction of god, not a devil who fought against god. Where Satan does appear in the Bible, he plays the role of the Accuser.
Hi Frank, thanks. I don't accept that is a problem. Of course the concept of Satan has evolved over the years, as have the concepts of God and the trinity. You can't go back to one claimed original usage and say that is the only legitimate one. For example there is a tradition identifying Satan with Seth, the evil Egyptian god who chopped his brother Osiris into 13 bits. Thoth and Horus also had roles similar to what you describe in the Egyptian myth where the heart of the deceased was weighed against a feather to judge admittance to heaven. As well, the extensive use of Satan in the New Testament has quite a different meaning from 'the accuser'. There is a strong idea of Satan as a deceiver, for example in the description of him as 'father of lies'. This is the tradition picked up by Milton in Paradise Lost. A really good book that I have just read on this topic is The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels, also author of The Gnostic Gospels and Adam, Eve and the Serpent. She traces how the concept of Satan evolved in the early church as a way of demonising political opponents.

I'm pleased that we can have this conversation as this question of the definition of Satan is an important topic for morality and ethics. It raises the issue of whether what the world considers evil really is evil, and whether and how evil is a useful concept. I primarily interpret Satan in an ontological sense – that humanity has lost awareness of our true identity, and this loss has a pathological karmic energy as a main cause of suffering in the world.

For a quick summary of Paradise Lost, have a look at my post in the sticky at the top of the PL forum.
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According to the article on 'Satan' in the Jewish Encyclopedia, Satan's role as the accuser is found in the prologue to the Book of Job.
In Job, Satan is much more than an accuser. Rather, his role is to attempt to get Job to deny God by making him suffer (eg here Satan afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. Your use of the Book of Job takes a specific interpretation and generalises it. The role as evil deceiver is clear in Job.
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In short Satan was an agent of god and even when seemingly acting as an independent entity it was largely assumed that god was working behind the scenes because it was impossible for the Satan to work against god.
Yes, Satan is under God's power, testing Job like a steel sword tempered in cold water. This is compatible with Paradise Lost where God in effect uses Satan to toughen humanity up. Saint Paul had a similar view, saying at Romans 5:3-4 “we rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope,” effectively welcoming the Satanic domination of the world as character-building. However, the ultimate goal of God is that all things should understand and live according to their nature. Satan works directly against this purpose by corrupting understanding, with the short term deception nonetheless working towards a longer term victory for God.
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The Satan name was later installed upon an evil angel that fought against god and was condemned to rule over hell, it was also implied that the snake in the Garden of Eden was this Satan even though it is not named so in the actual story.
You are right – Rev 12.9 says “The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.” but Genesis 3:1 says “Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?”” Obviously these memes from opposite ends of the Bible conflated by Milton's time so he naturally assumed the serpent was the devil incarnate when in fact the devil is not mentioned in Genesis. The term 'devil' does not even appear in the Old Testament.
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So all of the correlations about the Satan/Morning Star (Actually a Planet) and the Jupiter/Christ star (Also a planet) are purely based off of modern interpretation and not what was believed at the time of their creation.
I am not just talking about conscious beliefs, but also about unconscious connections and intuitions of cosmic reality. I am drawing Neptune into the picture which of course was not known until 1846. The connection between Satan and Venus seems reasonably clear to me. Both are equated to Lucifer, Venus by the Romans and Satan by Christianity. The fall of Venus (now happening rapidly Feb 27, 2009) from its position as evening and morning star has a direct mythic analogy to the fall of Satan from heaven. Perhaps the Christian equation between Venus and Satan has something to do with the efforts to cast all pagan star worship as Satanic. Given the Christian hostility to pagan sensuality, it is easy to imagine the cult of Aphrodite was viewed as particularly Satanic.

The link between Venus and the five point star, the pentangle or pentagram, the main Satanic symbol, is quite clear. (Warning science ahead) Because 13 Venus years are almost precisely equal to 8 Earth years, there are 13/5 = 2.6 Venus years for each 8/5 = 1.6 earth years. The common "0.6" in the two cycles means that when Venus has orbited 2.6 times, the Earth has orbited 1.6 times, so they line up exactly* again with the sun. The five inferior or superior conjunctions are therefore at 1.6, 3.2, 4.8, 6.4 and 8 earth years = 2.6, 5.2, 7.8, 10.4 and 13 Venus years. For example, the inferior conjunction of Earth and Venus on 18 August 2007 was the fifth such event since the same date in 1999. These five points form a perfect pentagram in space, the divine shape of Pythagorean lore and the Vitruvian Man by Leonardo, as discussed by Dan Brown in The Da Vinci Code.
*There is reportedly a 0.789 day slippage of this pentagram every 584 days so the whole shape rotates about once each millennium.
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Although I suppose it is possible that the Greeks did do the math before hand and applied it to their gods, they had a much greater understanding of the Earth and Heavens than the later Christian “scholars”.
Agreed, Christianity caused the dark ages by its hostility to reason and science. Pythagoras knew that Venus as an evening star was the same planet as Venus as a morning star, and his school used the Satanic upside down pentacle as their symbol – it also has ten points like their tetrachtys.
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If there is any writing establishing a link between Venus (A god of love and fertility) and Satan (a celestial prosecutor or later a devil), I would be greatly interested in seeing it. With the exception of the star (Planet) that was adopted by both myths I see almost nothing in common, it is an association I find to be rather weak.
Venus and Satan both represent pleasure, vanity and deceit, so there is a conceptual connection. I am not trying to say Venus is bad, as I disagree with the dogmatic Christian opposition to paganism and beauty. However, I am trying to set these values within a larger cosmic frame, and indicate the relative power of Christ and Satan in a new and speculative way.
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It is also noteworthy to mention that Christ names himself as the “Morning Star” in the end of the bible where he lies and says that he will return swiftly… possibly exposing himself as Satan?
Makes you think…Later
Obviously the morning star is a beautiful ambiguous symbol. Remember Peter said a thousand years is as a day to the Lord. Jesus also said in Matt 24 that he would not return until after his teaching had been spread to the whole inhabited earth, which looks like a prediction of globalisation.



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Robert Tulip wrote:
I have independently researched it as an explanation of the real structure of time.


By "the real structure of time" don't you mean that time has an ethical structure?

Tom



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I am not just talking about conscious beliefs, but also about unconscious connections and intuitions of cosmic reality.


Ok, my mistake… I thought you were trying to make Christianity reasonable, this one statement allows you to make any connection you wish without needing evidence.

Until you can prove that there is an unconscious connection to the UNIVERSE (and whatever definition you are using for that) this whole “theory” is just your own personal claim.

Which is fine, but does not separate it from any other religion by very much.

Later


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Frank said:

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Until you can prove that there is an unconscious connection to the UNIVERSE (and whatever definition you are using for that) this whole “theory” is just your own personal claim.

Which is fine, but does not separate it from any other religion by very much.


It damwell does separate it from other religion!!

It doesn't inspire fear into us for a start.

It is a religion which says....try it. It doesn't matter if you don't all sit around nodding in agreement. There is nothing to agree about, because it isn't provable, anyway.

The stupid idea of God and Satan fighting! As if God is in some divine (or demonic) Olympic Games!

As if we can wave the flag and support God, or the Devil....what the heck would they want with our souls anyway, or whatever else they are 'supposed' to be competing for.

It is not a competition!

Even I know that!!! :angry:


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RT: "That the series of apparent allusions to precession in the Bible do in fact refer to precession is not falsifiable, but I argue the reference to precession is the most coherent, plausible and parsimonious explanation."

Actually, the most parsimonious explanation is that there is no reference at all. You're connecting the dots and calling it real.



Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:59 pm
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Thomas Hood wrote:
By "the real structure of time" don't you mean that time has an ethical structure? Tom
Yes, exactly. The point is that our solar system has a complex evolutionary cyclic structure of which we are an intrinsic part. Understanding this structure can provide a rational basis for finding the ultimate meaning and purpose of human life. The allegory of the Ages has an elegant fit to this structure of time, with the slow shift of the equinoctial point acting as a marker for the slow shift in human consciousness. My opinion is that there is a mysterious harmony between this real cosmic cycle and human evolution, linking the 25764 year long Great Year with the annual cycle of the seasons in some inexplicable fractal reverberation. So, the sign of Pisces is traditionally associated with the verb "to believe", while the sign of Aquarius is traditionally associated with the verb "to know". This gives me confidence that our planet is gradually shifting from a 2147 year long Age, starting with Christ, in which belief was the dominant form of consciousness, to a New Age in which knowledge will be the basis of ethical life. We now see a late rearguard action by the forces of belief (fundamentalism) against the inevitable rising tide of scientific knowledge.



Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:23 pm
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