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Sarah Palin: Good, Bad or just the wrong choice?

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Do you think choosing Sarah Palin was a mistake for McCain?

Yes. She is way too inexperienced to potentially serve as President
13

59%
Yes, she may be inexperienced, but she has charm...and thats what counts.
1

5%
She has enough appeal to the masses to make her choice acceptable.
1

5%
No. She lives next to Russia, so has enough experience for me.
1

5%
Is it too late to get Tina Fey on the ticket?
5

23%
I think she was an excellent choice.
1

5%
 
Total votes: 22
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Robert Tulip

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Chris OConnor wrote:Come on, Nick. There are plenty of negatives to Obama. Don't be so biased that you skip right over his weaknesses. I'm at least willing to admit the strengths and weaknesses in both candidates. This isn't so glaringly obvious of a choice for millions of people and we're not all morons. It is more of a teeter-totter with Obama lower down than McCain. But both are humans with strengths and weaknesses.
Honestly...I cannot see how anyone would vote for Palin/McCain at this point. At least anyone who really thinks about things.
You have to know that a sentence such as this is an extreme insult and personal cut to the millions and millions of thinking and caring conservatives. And I'm one of them. You're implying that conservatives that are voting for McCain aren't thinking about things as deeply or rationally as you, and this is not necessarily the case. Some people simply feel McCain is better able to defend the US against terrorism. Some people don't believe in "redistributing the wealth." Some people find Obama's ties to several shady characters as unacceptable and a direct reflection on his judgment. You're insulting me when you make comments about how thinking people could never vote for McCain. I tend to think I'm a thinking person. Most people that know me consider me to be a deep thinker. So your words cut and I take them very personally.
You guys know the whole world is watching this election with great interest. What I admire about Chris's comments here is that he shows it is possible to be intelligent and conservative. This booktalk website would not be possible without this combination.

The superficial impression - especially looking at Palin - is that Republicans are rednecks and the liberals are the only ones with brains. I happen to greatly admire the Republican Party, because they are supported by the can-do people who built America. It looks sort of like the Democrats want to say to Republicans, thanks for all your hard work in building successful businesses, etc, now we will come along and give your money away to people who didn't earn it. That mentality is destructive of enterprise, initiative, incentive and economic growth. This is why McCain's point about wealth-creators versus wealth-distributors is a real issue. That is a fairly crude exaggeration, and Bush's tax cuts for the rich and deregulation of the finance sector took things too far the other way, but there is an issue here about how to sustain the dynamic entrepreneurial culture that built the USA. No one ever got rich as an honest recipient of charity.

This is where the Republican talk about freedom has a real economic and social meaning which liberals just don't get. The problem as I see it is that this good essence of Republicanism - freedom - is allied to an ignorant Christian base, and to an excessive level of militarisation. The Christian military culture is so powerful in the USA that both sides of politics need to support it. The Democrats are more critical of the weaknesses in mainstream America, and more capable of dialogue with America's enemies, but they also bring some prejudiced baggage which deserves careful analysis without partisan name calling.
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Robert Tulip wrote:
What I admire about Chris's comments here is that he shows it is possible to be intelligent and conservative.
Several Republican presidents have made us forget about this combination, but yes, I can easily imagine that it is possible to be republican and intelligent-- you need intelligence to be successful in business, but what I am worried about Republicans (though not about Chris in particular) is the (lack of) combination of Republican and charity, or better said solidarity. George Bush talked about something like "Compassionate Republicans" years ago, but I'm not impressed by the way he put this into practice.

You're right that that republicans made the US into the flourishing economy that it is, but my word what a harsh world it is, with its home evictions, lack of health care for many people...
No one ever got rich as an honest recipient of charity.
It always comes back to what one's priorities are. When there is so little charity or solidarity, suffering is very real.
I saw a report on television a few weeks ago. It was an American charity that had put together doctors and equipment that they meant to take to treat people in the third world. Then they saw that they didn't need to go so far, and got busy treating Americans who hadn't had their teeth fixed in years or who couldn't afford glasses. One man drove to work every day, seeing very little, but could not afford to see a doctor.

If this was my country things like this would be more important than knowing how many billion dollars the clever entrepreneurs brought to the nation-- and refused to share.
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If this was my country things like this would be more important than knowing how many billion dollars the clever entrepreneurs brought to the nation-- and refused to share.
This is precisely the problem I have with the liberal or socialist mentality. Who said anyone should "share" what they earn with anyone other than their family or friends? Isn't creating businesses and jobs and salaries a contribution to the world? The entrepreneur who starts a chain of coffee shops and thereby hires 132,000 employees is creating immense value. Why is success so frowned upon by liberals and socialists? This annoys me to no end.

Want more money? Go earn some. There are nights I work till 7:00 am busting my ass to earn a living. Yes, I earn more than the average American. I also work FAR harder and for longer hours. I'm always analyzing the situation and thinking of how I can create more value and a higher standard of living for myself and those I love. So why should I be asked to take my 16 hours day and hand it over to the next guy? Is this what makes me a good person? ....reaching into my pocket and handing over some cash?

Jesus, I am changing to being an Independent very soon, but conversations like this drive home the point of why I could NEVER be a Democrat. And by the way...I personally donate more than anyone else I know. I give to the homeless. I buy and ship Christmas presents to an orphanage every single year. I just don't think I'm doing as much good in the world as I do when I work hard and create jobs and opportunities for other people.
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Robert Tulip wrote:
The superficial impression - especially looking at Palin - is that Republicans are rednecks and the liberals are the only ones with brains. I happen to greatly admire the Republican Party, because they are supported by the can-do people who built America. It looks sort of like the Democrats want to say to Republicans, thanks for all your hard work in building successful businesses, etc, now we will come along and give your money away to people who didn't earn it.
Are you saying that only Republicans are business successes? I know at least one Democrat that I can name that was a big success at business...Jon Corzine.

Income tax has been with us for a while now...and when did it start? During the Civil War...by whom? Republican Abe Lincoln. And guess what...there was a graduated tax system based on income levels. Those who made more paid more. As we have seen, there are those 'earning' tens and hundreds of millions of dollars in corporate America...but god ofrbid we raise the minimum wage. Please guys....please. We see how businesses cannot and will not regulate themselves. Profit rules and only for those at the top. No one in my opinion 'earns' hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

We need taxes. Where would military funding come from? Roads? Now some people differ on what to spend our taxes on. Military only, national security, helping those who need help (including banks and investment companies now too huh?) and educating our children so that this nation can be strong in the right ways.

This is where the Republican talk about freedom has a real economic and social meaning which liberals just don't get. The problem as I see it is that this good essence of Republicanism - freedom - is allied to an ignorant Christian base, and to an excessive level of militarisation. The Christian military culture is so powerful in the USA that both sides of politics need to support it. The Democrats are more critical of the weaknesses in mainstream America, and more capable of dialogue with America's enemies, but they also bring some prejudiced baggage which deserves careful analysis without partisan name calling.
Who is name calling in this election boys? Democrats get the idea of freedom...which is why so many Democrats have been elected throughout our history. America saw it greatest growth since FDR...some of our 'socialist' policies cannot be all that bad. Since the majority Republican influence over the past 30 years, we have been in decline and now have to worry about, if one calls it worry, other nations become more innovative than we are. We lost our edge...because education is just not a strong point in our nation anymore. It is actually frowned upon by many.

I listed the republicans I respect...and they are all intellectual so your poke about 'liberals' making Republicans lok like rubes is out of line. Those that are considered the Republican intellectuals are for Obama for the most part.

If creating jobs is the goal and gift of business...why is the outsourcing debate even going on....because profit rules. Can't pay Americans a good wage because it eats into profits. See the flaw there boys?
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Chris OConnor wrote:
This is precisely the problem I have with the liberal or socialist mentality. Who said anyone should "share" what they earn with anyone other than their family or friends? Isn't creating businesses and jobs and salaries a contribution to the world?
So you are against outsourcing...good.
Chris OConnor wrote:The entrepreneur who starts a chain of coffee shops and thereby hires 132,000 employees is creating immense value. Why is success so frowned upon by liberals and socialists? This annoys me to no end.
It is not frowned upon. You are just using Conservative talking points here.
Chris OConnor wrote:Want more money? Go earn some. There are nights I work till 7:00 am busting my ass to earn a living. Yes, I earn more than the average American. I also work FAR harder and for longer hours.
Sorry Chris...but you work til 7? What about the people who work back breaking jobs, or two or three, for minimum wage just to eat and pay their bills? It is not just as easy as getting a job that pays what you want. It is what is out there on offer...and with minimum wage at ridiculous levels, there is no getting ahead. It is not how hard you work in this country...it is how well you buy into the what you are expected to do with your life in the way you are expected to do. Look where we are now because of the greed and sense of entitlement we have all been told is our right.

You and I work far less and less hard than many people I know and that are out there keeping the economy going at menial, low wage jobs. I know...they can or shoudl better themselves. Point is, we need people doing these jobs so not every CAN succeed to the level of above average. All classes are needed....the middle class the most. We as a nation need to support that somehow and we have been...through taxes and lower tax rates for those who can barely survive on the wages businessowners deign to pay them. Without the workers, there would be no millionaires or businesses.
Chris OConnor wrote:Jesus, I am changing to being an Independent very soon, but conversations like this drive home the point of why I could NEVER be a Democrat.
But you are basically having a cnversation with yourself, setting the tone and saying how you could never be...

Kinda like the Campaign McCain is running. There are no issues he has brought to the table that really matter or have any substance. All I said was that Obama is the right choice...and I was agreeing with you pretty much. I never said he had no faults or never said Republicans cannot reason. I even pointed to some who have. The McCain campaign and his decision making is in serious doubt. He is not the right choice for our country at this time. I would have loved it if he beat Bush in 2000 though....
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Hi, Fellas,

This economic stuff isn't a topic I know so much about, so I won't be tedious by giving an opinion. Sometimes I just regret it when I get too invested in a thing like this and I'm counterproductive and hurt or alienate people I don't mean to, which I think happened on another string recently. But coincidentally, my friend Garth just sent me this article from The Economist today (he must have spies everywhere!) and I'm not above reprinting it as my contribution of information to this discussion.

The Economist--capitalist journal par excellence--endorses a candidate

enjoy the read! G

The presidential election

It's time
Oct 30th 2008
From The Economist print edition

America should take a chance and make Barack Obama the next leader of the free world


IT IS impossible to forecast how important any presidency will be. Back in 2000 America stood tall as the undisputed superpower, at peace with a generally admiring world. The main argument was over what to do with the federal government's huge budget surplus. Nobody foresaw the seismic events of the next eight years. When Americans go to the polls next week the mood will be very different. The United States is unhappy, divided and foundering both at home and abroad. Its self-belief and values are under attack.

For all the shortcomings of the campaign, both John McCain and Barack Obama offer hope of national redemption. Now America has to choose between them. The Economist does not have a vote, but if it did, it would cast it for Mr Obama. We do so wholeheartedly: the Democratic candidate has clearly shown that he offers the better chance of restoring America's self-confidence. But we acknowledge it is a gamble. Given Mr Obama's inexperience, the lack of clarity about some of his beliefs and the prospect of a stridently Democratic Congress, voting for him is a risk. Yet it is one America should take, given the steep road ahead.

Thinking about 2009 and 2017
The immediate focus, which has dominated the campaign, looks daunting enough: repairing America's economy and its international reputation. The financial crisis is far from finished. The United States is at the start of a painful recession. Some form of further fiscal stimulus is needed (see article), though estimates of the budget deficit next year already spiral above $1 trillion. Some 50m Americans have negligible health-care cover. Abroad, even though troops are dying in two countries, the cack-handed way in which George Bush has prosecuted his war on terror has left America less feared by its enemies and less admired by its friends than it once was.

Yet there are also longer-term challenges, worth stressing if only because they have been so ignored on the campaign. Jump forward to 2017, when the next president will hope to relinquish office. A combination of demography and the rising costs of America's huge entitlement programmes—Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid—will be starting to bankrupt the country (see article). Abroad a greater task is already evident: welding the new emerging powers to the West. That is not just a matter of handling the rise of India and China, drawing them into global efforts, such as curbs on climate change; it means reselling economic and political freedom to a world that too quickly associates American capitalism with Lehman Brothers and American justice with Guantánamo Bay. This will take patience, fortitude, salesmanship and strategy.

At the beginning of this election year, there were strong arguments against putting another Republican in the White House. A spell in opposition seemed apt punishment for the incompetence, cronyism and extremism of the Bush presidency. Conservative America also needs to recover its vim. Somehow Ronald Reagan's party of western individualism and limited government has ended up not just increasing the size of the state but turning it into a tool of southern-fried moralism.

The selection of Mr McCain as the Republicans' candidate was a powerful reason to reconsider. Mr McCain has his faults: he is an instinctive politician, quick to judge and with a sharp temper. And his age has long been a concern (how many global companies in distress would bring in a new 72-year-old boss?). Yet he has bravely taken unpopular positions—for free trade, immigration reform, the surge in Iraq, tackling climate change and campaign-finance reform. A western Republican in the Reagan mould, he has a long record of working with both Democrats and America's allies.

If only the real John McCain had been running
That, however, was Senator McCain; the Candidate McCain of the past six months has too often seemed the victim of political sorcery, his good features magically inverted, his bad ones exaggerated. The fiscal conservative who once tackled Mr Bush over his unaffordable tax cuts now proposes not just to keep the cuts, but to deepen them. The man who denounced the religious right as "agents of intolerance" now embraces theocratic culture warriors. The campaigner against ethanol subsidies (who had a better record on global warming than most Democrats) came out in favour of a petrol-tax holiday. It has not all disappeared: his support for free trade has never wavered. Yet rather than heading towards the centre after he won the nomination, Mr McCain moved to the right.

Meanwhile his temperament, always perhaps his weak spot, has been found wanting. Sometimes the seat-of-the-pants method still works: his gut reaction over Georgia—to warn Russia off immediately—was the right one. Yet on the great issue of the campaign, the financial crisis, he has seemed all at sea, emitting panic and indecision. Mr McCain has never been particularly interested in economics, but, unlike Mr Obama, he has made little effort to catch up or to bring in good advisers (Doug Holtz-Eakin being the impressive exception).

The choice of Sarah Palin epitomised the sloppiness. It is not just that she is an unconvincing stand-in, nor even that she seems to have been chosen partly for her views on divisive social issues, notably abortion. Mr McCain made his most important appointment having met her just twice.

Ironically, given that he first won over so many independents by speaking his mind, the case for Mr McCain comes down to a piece of artifice: vote for him on the assumption that he does not believe a word of what he has been saying. Once he reaches the White House, runs this argument, he will put Mrs Palin back in her box, throw away his unrealistic tax plan and begin negotiations with the Democratic Congress. That is plausible; but it is a long way from the convincing case that Mr McCain could have made. Had he become president in 2000 instead of Mr Bush, the world might have had fewer problems. But this time it is beset by problems, and Mr McCain has not proved that he knows how to deal with them.

Is Mr Obama any better? Most of the hoopla about him has been about what he is, rather than what he would do. His identity is not as irrelevant as it sounds. Merely by becoming president, he would dispel many of the myths built up about America: it would be far harder for the spreaders of hate in the Islamic world to denounce the Great Satan if it were led by a black man whose middle name is Hussein; and far harder for autocrats around the world to claim that American democracy is a sham. America's allies would rally to him: the global electoral college on our website shows a landslide in his favour. At home he would salve, if not close, the ugly racial wound left by America's history and lessen the tendency of American blacks to blame all their problems on racism.

So Mr Obama's star quality will be useful to him as president. But that alone is not enough to earn him the job. Charisma will not fix Medicare nor deal with Iran. Can he govern well? Two doubts present themselves: his lack of executive experience; and the suspicion that he is too far to the left.

There is no getting around the fact that Mr Obama's résumé is thin for the world's biggest job. But the exceptionally assured way in which he has run his campaign is a considerable comfort. It is not just that he has more than held his own against Mr McCain in the debates. A man who started with no money and few supporters has out-thought, out-organised and out-fought the two mightiest machines in American politics—the Clintons and the conservative right.

Political fire, far from rattling Mr Obama, seems to bring out the best in him: the furore about his (admittedly ghastly) preacher prompted one of the most thoughtful speeches of the campaign. On the financial crisis his performance has been as assured as Mr McCain's has been febrile. He seems a quick learner and has built up an impressive team of advisers, drawing in seasoned hands like Paul Volcker, Robert Rubin and Larry Summers. Of course, Mr Obama will make mistakes; but this is a man who listens, learns and manages well.

It is hard too nowadays to depict him as soft when it comes to dealing with America's enemies. Part of Mr Obama's original appeal to the Democratic left was his keenness to get American troops out of Iraq; but since the primaries he has moved to the centre, pragmatically saying the troops will leave only when the conditions are right. His determination to focus American power on Afghanistan, Pakistan and proliferation was prescient. He is keener to talk to Iran than Mr McCain is— but that makes sense, providing certain conditions are met.

Our main doubts about Mr Obama have to do with the damage a muddle-headed Democratic Congress might try to do to the economy. Despite the protectionist rhetoric that still sometimes seeps into his speeches, Mr Obama would not sponsor a China-bashing bill. But what happens if one appears out of Congress? Worryingly, he has a poor record of defying his party's baronies, especially the unions. His advisers insist that Mr Obama is too clever to usher in a new age of over-regulation, that he will stop such nonsense getting out of Congress, that he is a political chameleon who would move to the centre in Washington. But the risk remains that on economic matters the centre that Mr Obama moves to would be that of his party, not that of the country as a whole.

He has earned it
So Mr Obama in that respect is a gamble. But the same goes for Mr McCain on at least as many counts, not least the possibility of President Palin. And this cannot be another election where the choice is based merely on fear. In terms of painting a brighter future for America and the world, Mr Obama has produced the more compelling and detailed portrait. He has campaigned with more style, intelligence and discipline than his opponent. Whether he can fulfil his immense potential remains to be seen. But Mr Obama deserves the presidency.
"Where can I find a man who has forgotten the words so that I can talk with him?"
-- Chuang-Tzu (c. 200 B.C.E.)
as quoted by Robert A. Burton
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Chris wrote:
Who said anyone should "share" what they earn with anyone other than their family or friends?
I think this is the tragedy of America that no one says you should share other than on a strictly voluntary basis. By "no one" I mean it is not a value of American society.The result is that there will always be people like Chris (or Bill Gates!) who donate voluntarily (in XIXth century Europe you called them "philanthropists"), and a vast majority of entrepreneurs who keep everything for themselves, with the blessing of their fellow countrymen.
Human beings being what they are, the only way of getting every one to share is to tax wealth and businesses.
Ophelia.
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Mr. Pessimistic wrote:Are you saying that only Republicans are business successes? I know at least one Democrat that I can name that was a big success at business...Jon Corzine. Income tax has been with us for a while now...and when did it start? During the Civil War...by whom? Republican Abe Lincoln. And guess what...there was a graduated tax system based on income levels. Those who made more paid more. As we have seen, there are those 'earning' tens and hundreds of millions of dollars in corporate America...but god ofrbid we raise the minimum wage. Please guys....please. We see how businesses cannot and will not regulate themselves. Profit rules and only for those at the top. No one in my opinion 'earns' hundreds of millions of dollars a year. We need taxes. Where would military funding come from? Roads? Now some people differ on what to spend our taxes on. Military only, national security, helping those who need help (including banks and investment companies now too huh?) and educating our children so that this nation can be strong in the right ways.
I am not at all saying that only Republicans are business successes. I was just drawing a broad generalisation about the differences of attitude across the political divide, and things are far from simple. There is a distinction between US Republicanism as a principled movement and the behaviour of the Republican Party. Like in other democracies, the two main US parties have their core support in organised capital and labour respectively, and their success depends on their ability to build a majority support reaching out to form social alliances from their core vote. In principle, I think it is better that the party of capital form government, because they should be able to generate higher levels of economic growth with the good result of lower taxes producing higher revenues. However, the principle is a long way from the practice. In the current circumstance if I was an American I would vote for Obama, because the capital-based party (the Republicans) has lost the plot, it is infected with idiotic forms of cultural conservatism, they don't have a clue about climate change, and Obama is way smarter and more credible than McCain. Even so, there are some great values within the Republican Party, and we can expect an Obamaslide to have various leftists cock-a-hoop pushing redistributive policies which seem just and compassionate but have negative longer term consequences. In talking about the minimum wage, it is worth remembering that half the people in the world
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Chris: Who said anyone should "share" what they earn with anyone other than their family or friends?

Chris' reasoning, I believe, stems from a basic premise of human nature: that people flourish best when operating from a place of rational self-interest, accompanied by a morality of self-reliance, independent initiative, and personal responsibility...conversely, relying upon the largesse of another, being dependent upon the assistance of others, expecting that others be responsible for one's survival and care: is irresponsible and an impediment to liberty. Each one should take care of themselves first, then assistance should extend to others most able to protect and help oneself, to those who share common values and play by the same rules, and outward with assistance diminishing in relation to the amount of support offered in return. In essence, caring for others is seen as an investment: where I offer my services, I expect a return that matches or exceeds my input. If all of us follow these rules, then a greater number of us will flourish...steadily increasing our services as our investments return greater and greater profits and rewards.

I don't take issue with Chris working to make his world in this image (and forgive the crude reduction Chris- but I think I'm on the right track). I don't agree with the premise, so I can't support the conclusions that follow. What I do take issue with, is why Palin or other Republicans who identify as Christians could adopt such a perspective.
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Robert Tulip wrote: In the current circumstance if I was an American I would vote for Obama, because the capital-based party (the Republicans) has lost the plot, it is infected with idiotic forms of cultural conservatism, they don't have a clue about climate change, and Obama is way smarter and more credible than McCain. Even so, there are some great values within the Republican Party, and we can expect an Obamaslide to have various leftists cock-a-hoop pushing redistributive policies which seem just and compassionate but have negative longer term consequences. In talking about the minimum wage, it is worth remembering that half the people in the world – three billion people – live on less than three dollars a day. I don't see why the relatively small number of poor people in the USA are so much more deserving than the billions of people who are trying to get ahead through free markets.
We are not more deserving...that was oneo f my points. We are spoiled rotten in this country. But, within our economic system, you have to earn a certain wage in order to survive within that system. It is indeed relative. I for one think we as a nation and a world would benefit from a more simple way of life.

I also agree with you that there is indeed good things in the Republican value system...which is why I am Independent. The reason the US was so effective and successful was because we found the balance between what the people want/need. For the past 8 years and more, the Republicans have been trying to convince the nation and world that the Democratic ideals were passe.

The mix of ideologies and the mix of a capitalist method and 'socialist' type, not strict socialist mind you, methods have found a good balance to help the nation as a whole succeed. There is room for some programs that aim to help those who were not born into, or had opportunities to make a success for themselves. It is not all hard work that helps one get ahead. What family you are born into helps and the circumstances one finds themselves in also contribute. Some people can climb out of a certain set of circumstances but it is not easy and not assured. There is an imbalance of opportunity in this county. Just look at the race issue and even the issue of relious v. atheists. If one does not kowtow to the established order, they find themselves against a wall. Those that benefit from the system should contribute to help keep it going. I also see nothing wrong wiith those who benefit most contributing more, because without the those who toil, they would not have what they have. The ultra successful do not function in a vacuum.

The Obama tax plan impacts those making over $250,000. If one made an extra $100,000 over $250,000, they would pay just $3000 more in taxes or so (I did the math a while ago an do not remember the exact number. If this were me, and I am not even close, I would have no problem giving back $3000 to make $97,000. Joe the plumber is a joke. It is insulting and appeals only to those who do not think or refuse to pay attention.

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