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Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
For nearly all of my time on BT I have encouraged everyone to undertake a serious/systematic study of the Bible if for no reason other than to avoid embarrassing misstatements from ignorance. Recently, after reading some other comments I decided to check out Sam Harris quotes. In the interest of full disclosure, I find Sam to be an unpleasant person. He has set himself on a level above Christians and often purports to lecture us but is really belittling us and in any way possible making Christians, The Bible, Jesus, etc. look stupid and meaningless. As rebuttal I present the following SH quote:
Sam Harris wrote:
If you think that it would be impossible to improve upon the Ten Commandments as a statement of morality, you really owe it to yourself to read some other scriptures. Once again, we need look no further than the Jains: Mahavira, the Jain patriarch, surpassed the morality of the Bible with a single sentence: "Do not injure, abuse, oppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture, or kill any creature or living being." Imagine how different our world might be if the Bible contained this as its central precept. Christians have abused, oppressed, enslaved, insulted, tormented, tortured, and killed people in the name of God for centuries, on the basis of a theologically defensible reading of the Bible. (from Sam Harris (Letter to a Christian Nation)
My first reaction was to laugh at this since I didn't think SH was serious, but after additional thought I decided he was and his ignorance of the Bible is shocking. In fact the Bible contains the following:
Quote:
Matthew 22 34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
It seems to me that Matthew 22 covers it. It is true that Matthew does not exempt creatures from being captive or otherwise used. SH was clearly concerned only with the treatment of people.
Lest someone claim that Jesus was calling an audible, please note:
Quote:
Leviticus 19 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. I am the LORD.
And, we have a clarification
Quote:
Matthew 5 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Again
Quote:
Matthew 19 16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
Who is my neighbor?
Quote:
Luke 10:25-37 New International Version (NIV) The Parable of the Good Samaritan 25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” 29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ 36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” 37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Another mention
Quote:
Romans 13 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
And again
Quote:
Galatians 5 13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
One more time
Quote:
James 2 8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. 12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Given the number of times Love your Neighbor is mentioned, that it has a parable* associated with it as an illustration, and that it is called the Greatest Commandment how could Sam Harris have missed it? I suggest that you avoid using the above SH quote, and you should probably check his other too before using.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
stahrwe wrote:
I find Sam to be an unpleasant person. He has set himself on a level above Christians and often purports to lecture us but is really belittling us and in any way possible making Christians, The Bible, Jesus, etc. look stupid and meaningless.
It appears Harris has succeeded in some small way then.
So there are some nice sentiments in the Bible, no one is disputing that. But it sure is hard to justify those nasty parts about murder, slavery, etc., isn't it? To think this is the perfect book is therefore absurd.
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Dexter wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
I find Sam to be an unpleasant person. He has set himself on a level above Christians and often purports to lecture us but is really belittling us and in any way possible making Christians, The Bible, Jesus, etc. look stupid and meaningless.
It appears Harris has succeeded in some small way then.
So there are some nice sentiments in the Bible, no one is disputing that. But it sure is hard to justify those nasty parts about murder, slavery, etc., isn't it? To think this is the perfect book is therefore absurd.
This sad attempt to divert attention away from the point of the thread emphasizes what I am saying. Persistence in the above criticism reflects you lack of Bible knowledge. It will trip you up just as it did Sam Harris.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Quote:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
What this means to me is that it is okay to torture, murder, and rape anyone who is not able to be defined as your neighbor. The clarification of what it means to be a neighbor does not specify that your neighbor is someone who believes in a different god. In fact, the very first "commandment" is tied in to other instances where it is mentioned that you should only worship one god. In that sense, there is nothing wrong with the interpretation that harming those of other religions is morally acceptable. We see this all across history, with references to the bible to justify the acts. The Christian torture, murder, and rape of those who believe differently was ubiquitous. Sam Harris' point emphatically stands true.
Your previous fallacious appeals to authority miss the fact that the larger population of believers consistently suppressed or eliminated those who believed differently. A valid conclusion is that a large number of people believe, not because it's true, but because they eliminated the competition! Not only does this conclusion avoid the fallacy, but it's supported by the facts. Of course, I think there are stronger variables at play than the elimination of competition, but that's for another discussion. But suffice it to say that it is a variable, and a strong one at the very least.
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Once again the attempt to evade and divert but it will not work. As far as I am concerned Sam Harris could have said, "the Bible should have included the statement that, 'Brown cows give chocolate milk,' and it doesn't." Then I cam along and showed that it not only says 'Brown cows give chocolate milk, it does it six times.
The point is not the text or its meaning. The point is that Sam Harris made a blatantly incorrect statement about the Bible. An incorrect statement about a key verse in the Bible. SH makes a living by criticizing the Bible. He should have his 'act' together and he doesn't. I have warned that criticizing the Bible whithout knowing the Bible is goin to bite, burn, embarrass, the person doing the criticizing and it has. Don't make the same mistake.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Quote:
Once again the attempt to evade and divert but it will not work.
Actually, my post has shown that you're wrong. Did you not understand what I wrote?
Sam said nothing wrong about the bible. There is no condemnation within the bible of the slaughter of every type of person. Only persons who believe in the same god as you are to be treated as yourself, since only they qualify as a neighbor.
Showing that we should love our neighbor does not change that. There is nothing that says "love the man on the other side of the continent who believes in a different god."
If there was, maybe Christians wouldn't have slaughtered such people for two millennia. Harris' point stands.
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
Once again the attempt to evade and divert but it will not work.
Actually, my post has shown that you're wrong. Did you not understand what I wrote?
Sam said nothing wrong about the bible. There is no condemnation within the bible of the slaughter of every type of person. Only persons who believe in the same god as you are to be treated as yourself, since only they qualify as a neighbor.
Showing that we should love our neighbor does not change that. There is nothing that says "love the man on the other side of the continent who believes in a different god."
If there was, maybe Christians wouldn't have slaughtered such people for two millennia. Harris' point stands.
Yes, you are wrong, Sam said, "... to improve upon the Ten Commandments as a statement of morality...".
Also, didn't anyone ever tell you it was unwise to make sweeping generalizations. Your statement above is also incorrect. It is another one of those major errors like Sam's. I will show you how later unless you wish to ammend or withdraw it.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
Yes, you are wrong
Followed by meaningless drivel that in no way shows that I'm wrong.
sam harris wrote:
If you think that it would be impossible to improve upon the Ten Commandments as a statement of morality, you really owe it to yourself to read some other scriptures. Once again, we need look no further than the Jains: Mahavira, the Jain patriarch, surpassed the morality of the Bible with a single sentence: "Do not injure, abuse, oppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture, or kill any creature or living being." Imagine how different our world might be if the Bible contained this as its central precept. Christians have abused, oppressed, enslaved, insulted, tormented, tortured, and killed people in the name of God for centuries, on the basis of a theologically defensible reading of the Bible. (from Sam Harris (Letter to a Christian Nation)
Why are you denying the obvious. The above paragraph deals with the text of the Bible and Mahavira, not the actual history of either culture. Sam Harris was wrong in his statement pure and simple. It doesn't do you or his reputation any good to deny it.
With respect to the large text from the SH quote, the Bible does contain the cited concept and Jesus refers to it as THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Quote:
With respect to the large text from the SH quote, the Bible does contain the cited concept and Jesus refers to it as THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT.
The bible does not contain the cited concept. A muslim is not your neighbor and the bible justifies killing them, just as slaves are not your neighbor and the bible justifies owning them.
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
With respect to the large text from the SH quote, the Bible does contain the cited concept and Jesus refers to it as THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT.
The bible does not contain the cited concept. A muslim is not your neighbor and the bible justifies killing them, just as slaves are not your neighbor and the bible justifies owning them.
You continue to attempt to divert the discussion from the text. This is not the thread to engage in the discussion of the cultures it is merely a discussion of the texts. I submit that Sam Harris' error is magnified by the emphasis which the Bible gives the idea of 'Love thy Neighbor as thyself'. How many times does Mahavira mention it? I cited more than four direct references in the Bible and there are more indirect ones. Jesus refers to it as the Greatest Commandment and even uses a parable to emphasize the importance. A parable which is so well knows that it is part of our language. The term Good Samaritan is even codified in our legal system. Good Samaritan laws protect citizens fro legal liability in cases where they help peopl in trouble.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Quote:
I submit that Sam Harris' error is magnified by the emphasis which the Bible gives the idea of 'Love thy Neighbor as thyself'.
Your submission has been shown false. A thousand references does not excuse the exclusion of non-neighbors. It's an exclusionary belief system and disgusting because of it. The message should be to embrace people who worship other gods, rather than see them in any way as the "others". This moral rot won't go away by ignoring the fault.
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Quote:
My first reaction was to laugh at this since I didn't think SH was serious, but after additional thought I decided he was and his ignorance of the Bible is shocking.
I'm fully convinced there is a group of you posting. I can't see any lone person being this stupid. That's not an insult, because it's the sort of inconsistency that is explained by a group of posters.
Sam Harris' ignorance of the bible is "shocking"!? This is a phenomenal example of the Dunning Kruger effect, committed by whichever of you made that post. "Love thy neighbor" should be "love all mankind". The exclusionary beliefs are the greatest evil known to mankind, they lead to atrocities such as the crusades and inquisitions. Massive human suffering, on a terrible scale, by correctly interpreting the bible as condoning the exclusion of people who worship other gods, or no gods.
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
My first reaction was to laugh at this since I didn't think SH was serious, but after additional thought I decided he was and his ignorance of the Bible is shocking.
I'm fully convinced there is a group of you posting. I can't see any lone person being this stupid. That's not an insult, because it's the sort of inconsistency that is explained by a group of posters.
Sam Harris' ignorance of the bible is "shocking"!? This is a phenomenal example of the Dunning Kruger effect, committed by whichever of you made that post. "Love thy neighbor" should be "love all mankind". The exclusionary beliefs are the greatest evil known to mankind, they lead to atrocities such as the crusades and inquisitions. Massive human suffering, on a terrible scale, by correctly interpreting the bible as condoning the exclusion of people who worship other gods, or no gods.
And once again I assure you that there is only me. I sometimes bounce things off my wife, or others; I have a few email friends but we don't converse that often; so whatever stupid is here is all me.
I will again call you out for attempting to divert the discussion but I will address your comment, ["Love thy neighbor" should be "love all mankind"]. That is a meaningless statement. What does 'all mankind' mean? It is a copout. On the other hand, if you saw, 'love thy neighbor' the logical response would be, 'who is my neighbor'? I hope by now you realize that this exact questions is asked and answered in the Bible in the story of the Good Samaritan but I will further instruct you with my take. In an upcoming book a major theme will be the idea that The neighbor of my neighbor is my neighbor. As you carry that idea forward it becomes clear that it encompasses the whole world.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Sam Harris shows off his Bible Knowledge
Quote:
["Love thy neighbor" should be "love all mankind"]. That is a meaningless statement. What does 'all mankind' mean? It is a copout.
All mankind means every person on Earth, without prejudice. Including those who worship other gods. It is not a copout. It is a razor sharp point that makes you look foolish.
Your reference to newer material is merely evidence of a zeitgeist that is independent of what the bible actually says. The zeitgeist at different points in our history was much different, when world famous theologians would use the bible to support slavery, or support an attack on people who believe differently.
The bible does not make the distinction, that is why supplemental material is referenced. Harris' point stands as strong as ever, that a theologically sound interpretation of the bible is evil.
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