Safety is Freedom!

minority mandate · Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Safety is Freedom!

How about restating the proposition: Saftey is the prerequisite for freedom.

A person in constant fear for his life may have all the potential freedom in the world, but his concern for self preservation severely limits his movements, his choices, and even his thoughts. In such a situation only the fearless monk has freedom, and he perhaps for only a short time until he is killed. That is a bogus freedom circumscribed by lack of safety.

On the other hand saftey might be found in a high security prision where every move is dictated, that is safety at the expense of freedom.

Most people, excepting perhaps ole Ben, will chose saftey now in hopes of obtaining freedom later. It doesn't work as well the other way around.

minority mandate · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Safety is Freedom!

Skydiving is (to date) free, but not safe if you chose to jump. But, it is neither free nor safe if you are pushed. However, it is both safe and free if you chose not to jump, and are not pushed. If you are prevented from jumping then you are safe, but not free. In any case, if no one prevents you, then you are free to jump - or free not to jump, the decision of safety is up to you. Unfortunately, you are still faced with a either/or quandry, unless you come up with a viable alternative.

The same could be said for laying about on the couch eating potato chips and drinking Jim Beam.

Asana Bodhitharta · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:21 am Post subject: Re: Safety is Freedom!

Quote:
Skydiving is (to date) free, but not safe if you chose to jump. But, it is neither free nor safe if you are pushed. However, it is both safe and free if you chose not to jump, and are not pushed. If you are prevented from jumping then you are safe, but not free. In any case, if no one prevents you, then you are free to jump - or free not to jump, the decision of safety is up to you. Unfortunately, you are still faced with a either/or quandry, unless you come up with a viable alternative.

Sky diving is safe if you choose to jump unless you choose to jump without a parachute in which case it is not free either.

MaesterAuron151 · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Safety is Freedom!

Quote:
However, it is both safe and free if you chose not to jump, and are not pushed.

Only if this choice is made out of personal preference. If it is made out of fear despite a desire to sky dive you're not free. A person could want to sky dive but simply be too frightened to do it. That person would not be free he/she would be restrained by conflicting emotions.

Asana Bodhitharta · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Safety is Freedom!

Quote:
Only if this choice is made out of personal preference. If it is made out of fear despite a desire to sky dive you're not free. A person could want to sky dive but simply be too frightened to do it. That person would not be free he/she would be restrained by conflicting emotions.

They would be restrained by feelings of not being safe.

minority mandate · Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Safety is Freedom!

Wouldn't a person be free to indulge in his fear then?

Asana Bodhitharta · Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: Re: Safety is Freedom!

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Wouldn't a person be free to indulge in his fear then?

Yes, and when you are free to "indulge" in anything even fear is safe. For example going to a scary movie or worrying about the bills in the future although there all paid up right now. These are forms of self induced anxiety.

MaesterAuron151 · Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:19 am Post subject: Re: Safety is Freedom!

Quote:
They would be restrained by feelings of not being safe.

But those feelings are unfounded

Quote:
Despite the seeming danger of the leap, fatalities are rare. However, each year a number of people are hurt or killed parachuting world-wide.[1][2] About 30 skydivers are killed each year in the US, which works out roughly to one death out of every 166,000 jumps.[3]

wikipedia.com

Quote:
Odds of being killed sometime in the next year in any sort of transportation accident: 77 to 1

www.funny2.com/odds.htm

Skydiving doesn't seem like something to fear when compared to driving. Each has a significant amount of freedom weighed against a minor loss of safety.

Skydiving only privides a single freedom, the freedom to feel the sensation of skydiving. If someone has a desire to sky dive fear of death would be an irrational restriction as the odds of dieing are extremely low. If someone doesn't have much intrest there's no real loss of freedom due to fear since they're only being bared from something they don't really care to do.

Driving and using transportion provides almost infinite freedoms. To deny yourself these freedoms for the safety of never having to travel would be extremely limiting. It could only be considered a free action if you genuinely had no intrest in any activities that require you to use a form of transportation.

Saint Gasoline · Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: Re: Safety is Freedom!

Asana, everyone can see the point you are making, but your conclusion that safety is equivalent to freedom is downright false.

If everyone is free, we run the risk of having our freedoms infringed by tyrants. In order to prevent this, we generally renege some of our freedoms in order to protect some of our more valued freedoms. We are willing to give up the freedom to murder and steal, for instance, in exchange for preventing others from murdering and stealing--which could harm us or deprive us of freedom.

However, this does not mean that safety is more valuable than freedom, or equal to it. I would never trade my freedom of speech, for instance, even though this freedom could potentially lead me to anger someone who subsequently hurts me. The potential safety gained is not worth the freedom lost, whereas I am willing to give up my freedom to go about murdering people because I do not value this and I would not want others to murder me.

In an imperfect world, the best way to maximize freedom is to restrict it a little bit. But too much restriction defeats the purpose, and too little can lead to potential abuses of this power.

Asana Bodhitharta · Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Safety is Freedom!

Quote:
Asana, everyone can see the point you are making, but your conclusion that safety is equivalent to freedom is downright false.

They are equivalents in my opinion lets see what the dictionary says safety is the condition of being safe; freedom from danger, risk, or injury. Now Let's see what defines freedom. Freedom is the condition of being free of restraints.

Quote:
If everyone is free, we run the risk of having our freedoms infringed by tyrants. In order to prevent this, we generally renege some of our freedoms in order to protect some of our more valued freedoms. We are willing to give up the freedom to murder and steal, for instance, in exchange for preventing others from murdering and stealing--which could harm us or deprive us of freedom.

So, to be free from harm(safe) we agree not to harm.

Quote:
However, this does not mean that safety is more valuable than freedom, or equal to it. I would never trade my freedom of speech, for instance, even though this freedom could potentially lead me to anger someone who subsequently hurts me. The potential safety gained is not worth the freedom lost, whereas I am willing to give up my freedom to go about murdering people because I do not value this and I would not want others to murder me.

In an imperfect world, the best way to maximize freedom is to restrict it a little bit. But too much restriction defeats the purpose, and too little can lead to potential abuses of this power.

You are right the best way to maximize freedom is to define the boundaries of safe action.

I guess what I'm saying is that they should be seen as rational equivalents.

MaesterAuron151 · Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Safety is Freedom!

But safety and freedom are entirely subjective.

One person might considere the other's level of safety entirely too low while another might view someone as having too little freedom.

I might consider the freedom to skydive worth the .00001% chance of dieing which another might consider that entirely too much of a risk given the rewards.

You can't weigh two things as equivilents when they're subjective concepts.


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