Ron Paul (one of my fav. Republicans) Speech on U.S. Anger

Mr. Pessimistic

Quote:
The major obstacle to a sensible foreign policy is the fiction about what patriotism means. Today patriotism has come to mean blind support for the government and its policies. In earlier times patriotism meant having the willingness and courage to challenge government policies regardless of popular perceptions.

Today we constantly hear innuendos and direct insults aimed at those who dare to challenge current foreign policy, no matter how flawed that policy may be. I would suggest it takes more courage to admit the truth, to admit mistakes, than to attack others as unpatriotic for disagreeing with the war in Iraq.

Full Text of Speech

He is not totally on my side of every issue...but he is honest in his speeches.

Mr. P.

Mr. P's place. I warned you!!!

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Edited by: misterpessimistic at: 6/30/06 2:57 pm

MadArchitect

The major obstacle to a sensible foreign policy is the fiction about what patriotism means. Today patriotism has come to mean blind support for the government and its policies. In earlier times patriotism meant having the willingness and courage to challenge government policies regardless of popular perceptions.

I'd say that the difference between the patriotism of past days (somewhat idealized, we should admit) and the calls to patriotism today are that we've learned to associate patriotism less with the idea of America and more with the institutions that preside over America. If our patriotism expressed a fidelity to the ideals of liberty and justice, I'm not sure we'd have acquiesed to something like the Patriot Act, nor would so many people have been so content to trust the Bush administrations decisions regarding Iraq.

Hey, waitaminute... who put this soapbox here?

GOD defiles Reason

Soapboxes are a slippery slope, my friend.

But it's all good clean fun. No sense in telling dirty jokes about dirty wars and rotten politicians. Once the country's cleansed of the filth, it'll likely be contaminated by a new culture of germs. Tends to make one sick just thinking about it. Dirty thoughts? How indecent it is indeed, that so-called moral indecency pollutes the discourse with so much sewage being spewed by the Right. Shit ain't right! man

It just stinks. Somebody crack a window before I get on my soapbox, too

JulianTheApostate

I've formed a negative view of patriotism, or at least of claims of patriotism. I associate assertions of patriotism with Republican efforts to promote policies that increase human suffering.

Now, American society has been very good to me personally, and I'm very grateful for the fantastic live I live here. My main complains are that so many people are so much worse off and that US government policies are become less moral, year after year. The most patriotic thing I do is to vote for and donate to Democratic candidates, in an effort to keep the Republicans from making this nation, and the world, a worse place.

riverc0il

Julian, I found it amusing that first you slammed patriotism but then attributed it to doing an action that you support! ::78

The problem with "Patriotism" is it has become an historically important standard for the country that everyone wants to associate with their cause, as if claiming patriotism justifies the cause without any further discussion. Once claimed, it also makes it easier to ridicule those that oppose your position as unpatriotic (which is ironic because the patriots were an opposition group!!!). Claiming historical labels in modern context is very dangerous, especially ones that are highly emotionally charged. Unfortunately, it seems even the dictionary definition has gotten away from the original denotation of the word in that it is an adjective used to describe "one who loves, supports, and defends one's country." By that definition, every time you stand up to the opposing political party and fight for what you believe is best for the country, you are being patriotic. Which essentially means that no political party can claim patriotism because any one involved in politics is likely by definition patriotic. Why become involved in politics if you didn't love and support your country and want to defend what it stands for?

There are a lot of key buzz words similar to Patriotism that get tossed around a lot as political parties try to claim them for themselves and slander the other party as not possessing the better qualities and terminologies. Liberty, Freedom, Democracy, Patriotism, etc. The claim of these charged words as one's own to the exclusion of opposition parties is just another aspect of negative campaigning and negative politics, a most uncivil affair. If only politics could be civil, I think a lot more people would be interested in being involved and doing more for their country and community.

MadArchitect

It's such a vague word really. Two people with opposing points of view can both claim to be acting in the interests of patriotism, and there's no standard for determining who has the better claim.

Dissident Heart

I like how Emma Goldman puts it:

Quote:
What, then, is patriotism? "Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of scoundrels," said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the greatest anti-patriot of our times, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment for the exercise of man-killing than the making of such necessities of life as shoes, clothing, and houses; a trade that guarantees better returns and greater glory than that of the average workingman.

Gustave Hervé, another great anti-patriot, justly calls patriotism a superstition--one far more injurious, brutal, and inhumane than religion. The superstition of religion originated in man's inability to explain natural phenomena. That is, when primitive man heard thunder or saw the lightning, he could not account for either, and therefore concluded that back of them must be a force greater than himself. Similarly he saw a supernatural force in the rain, and in the various other changes in nature. Patriotism, on the other hand, is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.

Indeed, conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.

Obviously she accentuates only the flaws and abuses regarding Patriotism. I think I would take a person more seriously, offer my allegience and sacrifices for a shared cause, if they approached Patriotism by way of Goldman's critique. In other words, if they were honest about the delusions that fuel Patriotic fervor and were working to steer clear of them, holding themselves accountable for these temptations, and wanting to mend the mess made by fanatics of all stripes....then I would join in solidarity with them- no matter their Nation; actually, in spite of their Nation.


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