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religious instruction
A conversation today made me think. Why would it not be better to let children grow up with no religious instruction and let them then seek it our for themselves? I hope Dawn or Stahrwe could enlighten me about this. Certainly there is plenty of information out there to be had and found. If atheists can find their own way to a stance on religion, why can't others? People then would be true converts. Otherwise couldn't it be said that they are just brain washed, indoctrinated? And otherwise unduly influenced.
The words of this song although not intended for religion do make you stop and think how harmful it must be to young children.
This is "You've got to be carefully taught" from South Pacific
You've got to be taught To hate and fear You've got to be taught From year to Year It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear You've got to be carefully taught
You've got to be taught To be Afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made And people whose skin Is a different shade You've got to be carefully taught
You've got to be taught Before it's too late Before you are 6 or 7 or 8 To hate all the people your relatives hate You've got to be carefully taught
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Re: religious instruction
Well if I thought that my religion was true, I'd want to teach it to my children and wouldn't be concerned about them being unduly influenced. Of course that's not a defense of brainwashing children with ludicrous fairy tales, luckily I was spared.
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Re: religious instruction
lady of shallot wrote:
A conversation today made me think. Why would it not be better to let children grow up with no religious instruction and let them then seek it our for themselves? I hope Dawn or Stahrwe could enlighten me about this. Certainly there is plenty of information out there to be had and found. If atheists can find their own way to a stance on religion, why can't others? People then would be true converts. Otherwise couldn't it be said that they are just brain washed, indoctrinated? And otherwise unduly influenced.
The words of this song although not intended for religion do make you stop and think how harmful it must be to young children.
This is "You've got to be carefully taught" from South Pacific
You've got to be taught To hate and fear You've got to be taught From year to Year It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear You've got to be carefully taught
You've got to be taught To be Afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made And people whose skin Is a different shade You've got to be carefully taught
You've got to be taught Before it's too late Before you are 6 or 7 or 8 To hate all the people your relatives hate You've got to be carefully taught
It is hard when you don't know much about the Bible. The Bible can and does teach us. Try:
Lev 19:18 Matt 22:36-40 Acts 6 Acts 15 1st Timothy 5:3
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: religious instruction
Lady of shallot,
We all understand that one cannot "tell" others what values to believe in. But we would be untrue to ourselves if we did not share our values with our children. They are in the position of judging to what extent we "really" believe in them, and follow them. They will make their choices. We are in the position of the parents in the CSNY song: "The one they pick's the one you'll know by."
Of course it is very sad when the values parents teach are hate, ignorance, superiority, hostility and belligerence. But I think parenting is so difficult that it will be awhile before we are ready to take away children because of their parent's shortcomings, except when their physical safety is endangered by gross negligence. Not being PC will still be tolerated for a while yet.
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Re: religious instruction
We share our values with our children simply by the way we live. How we interact with others and how we guide and teach them as they learn to interact with others. The good or harm of these lessons is demonstrable. We do not need to reference any "higher" being or threat or gift of such a being. Anyway this definitely worked in my life so of course I believe it would (and have seen it also) work in the lives of others.
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Re: religious instruction
lady of shallot wrote:
A conversation today made me think. Why would it not be better to let children grow up with no religious instruction and let them then seek it our for themselves? I hope Dawn or Stahrwe could enlighten me about this. Certainly there is plenty of information out there to be had and found. If atheists can find their own way to a stance on religion, why can't others? People then would be true converts. Otherwise couldn't it be said that they are just brain washed, indoctrinated? And otherwise unduly influenced.
I can see how you might think that. However, you presumably would not make the same case (let them discover it for themselves) for evolution, even though it is considered indoctrination by some. The point is that there is content to be taught, and you are trying to argue for de-legitimizing certain content through some back door. Naughty, naughty!
Presumably you have raised children, so I can reference your experience. Then surely you understand that values are not only demonstrated, they are also explained. This is no different from any other process in raising children -when they want to know why, you do not say, "Go and find out for yourself why algebra works." Or "Why don't you try stealing something from someone and then see how they react? It is very instructive!"
The reason I made an effort to teach my children my religion is that I consider it a very valuable "spiritual vocabulary." Just as they need the vocabulary to make sense of economic events (I am an economist) so they need the vocabulary to make sense of guilt, forgiveness, courage, wisdom, caring and all the rest of the things religion is concerned with. We did not teach them a vindictive punishing or even rewarding theology for the simple reason that we don't believe in one, but I respect my acquaintances who believe it is an expression of the seriousness of evil just as I respect those who believe corporal punishment is important (even though we raised our children without it). I can distinguish between misguided understanding and willingness to do harm.
The following user would like to thank Harry Marks for this post: Dawn
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Re: religious instruction
Harry Marks
Quote:
Just as they need the vocabulary to make sense of economic events (I am an economist) so they need the vocabulary to make sense of guilt, forgiveness, courage, wisdom, caring and all the rest of the things religion is concerned with.
Like you I brought up my daughter in what I considered the best way vis a vis religion. Since I had none, I gave her none. Of course she knew there were churches and that people attended them. She had a child's Bible but I never read it to her or taught her from it. I would never teach a child a "sense of guilt", people come by that naturally and that is why they put it into the Bible so often. Wisdom can not be taught, only acquired (hopefully). You teach caring by being caring. You teach courage by allowing children a certain amount of freedom and by not teaching them fear. A huge difference I see between people who live a religious life and those who do not is that those free from religious indoctrination are more understanding, less judgmental, more forgiving and view themselves also as being free from being judged.
Frankly I don't know what you mean by "vocabulary" of religion. I am also not trying to dismantle anything. I don't care if people want to attend religious services. I do not want them to preach to me or try to convert me, anymore than I would try to preach or proselytize to them. BTW I do not care for your admonition "naughty, naughty" as if I were a recalcitrant child. I am probably old enough to be your mother. Show a little respect. (You don't need religion to teach you to be courteous to others)
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Re: religious instruction
Quote:
Harry Marks The reason I made an effort to teach my children my religion is that I consider it a very valuable "spiritual vocabulary." Just as they need the vocabulary to make sense of economic events (I am an economist) so they need the vocabulary to make sense of guilt, forgiveness, courage, wisdom, caring and all the rest of the things religion is concerned with.
Believe it or not all of that can be taught (and statistically it looks like taught better) without religion. There is zero need to look to an old barbaric fable to teach those things… those human qualities are dealt with all the time in non-fiction and fiction across the spectrum of media. Furthermore the more current narratives are more entertaining, moving and relevant than anything offered in the Bible... I did not cry when I read the Bible (except from boredom and tired eyes) E.T. really got me though.
That’s just my opinion based on my observations.
Later
_________________ That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Re: religious instruction
lady of shallot wrote:
BTW I do not care for your admonition "naughty, naughty" as if I were a recalcitrant child. I am probably old enough to be your mother. Show a little respect. (You don't need religion to teach you to be courteous to others)
Fair enough, but obviously I didn't care for your comparison of teaching my children religion with teaching prejudice and hatred. So why don't we leave that little spat where it lies.
lady of shallot wrote:
Frankly I don't know what you mean by "vocabulary" of religion. I am also not trying to dismantle anything. I don't care if people want to attend religious services. I do not want them to preach to me or try to convert me, anymore than I would try to preach or proselytize to them.
I trust you do not consider these forums preaching to you or trying to proselytize to you. What I meant by a "vocabulary" of the concepts I mentioned is that the stories and ancient ideas of Judaism and Christianity are a treasure of resources about how such things actually work. In a tough environment that neither you nor I have much sense of. They are not always as refined as they could be, but then neither is Shakespeare and surely Homer is not. The spirit is the relationship of the self to the self, and therefore, inevitably, to everything else. Since, as I took some effort to explain, one talks to children about such things and does not just demonstrate them, one needs a vocabulary. You can compare situations to Jacob, or Samson, or Peter, or Paul. You can hold out ideals, and when you have failed yourself or others, as by being more stern with them than is necessary, there is a vocabulary for talking about the need for forgiveness.
We also tried to teach them about Gandhi and Martin Luther King. These are part of the vocabulary of spirit as well. If you want to leave out a part because it is too tainted by ancient superstition and bad science, I would not second-guess that. If you want to de-legitimize others including the religious part, you are going to need a more persuasive reason.
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Re: religious instruction
Frank 013 wrote:
Believe it or not all of that can be taught (and statistically it looks like taught better) without religion. There is zero need to look to an old barbaric fable to teach those things… those human qualities are dealt with all the time in non-fiction and fiction across the spectrum of media. Furthermore the more current narratives are more entertaining, moving and relevant than anything offered in the Bible... I did not cry when I read the Bible (except from boredom and tired eyes) E.T. really got me though.
Forgive me if I cry at the story of the prodigal son. You may have heard it in the "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" version.
E.T. is good. It even has resurrection. I also recommend Holes and Shrek, and Tuck Everlasting, if we are talking kid's stuff. The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe is not bad, nor is The Lord of the Rings, and yes, Harry Potter. These all add to the vocabulary of Spirit. I find that putting lofty ideas such as "now there abide three things, Faith, Hope and Love, but the greatest of these is Love" in their context is an extremely valuable exercise. But for others it is a complete turn-off. Fine.
I am interested in your statistics. I have a feeling there is a confusion of correlation with causation, but that may just be the social scientist in me getting all paranoid.
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Re: religious instruction
Quote:
Harry Marks E.T. is good. It even has resurrection. I also recommend Holes and Shrek, and Tuck Everlasting, if we are talking kid's stuff. The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe is not bad, nor is The Lord of the Rings, and yes, Harry Potter.
I love all of these as well!
Quote:
Harry Marks I am interested in your statistics. I have a feeling there is a confusion of correlation with causation, but that may just be the social scientist in me getting all paranoid.
It’s simply the fact that per capita atheists have the smallest number of members in prison. Oh and that secular nations seem to have more tolerant, happy citizens.
I make no claim as to why exactly, but it does show (in my opinion) that religion is largely unnecessary for moralistic education and maintaining a civilized society.
Later
_________________ That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Re: religious instruction
Frank 013 wrote:
I make no claim as to why exactly, but it does show (in my opinion) that religion is largely unnecessary for moralistic education and maintaining a civilized society.
You were in the corrections business at one time were you not. How many of the inmates made jailhouse conversions? How many were deacons in their churches before being arrested and how many went back to their churches after being released? I've been to jail services and at the altar call everyone invariably comes forward. I don't know if they are sincere, or just trying to score points with God or the warden but the conversion experience does not seem to stick and I call shenanigans on the statistics.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: religious instruction
Quote:
Stahrwe You were in the corrections business at one time were you not.
yep
Quote:
stahrwe How many of the inmates made jailhouse conversions?
A great many… mostly from Christianity to Islam.
Quote:
Stahrwe How many were deacons in their churches before being arrested and how many went back to their churches after being released?
Onetrillion and twenty three... or did you want a serious answer to an unknowable question?
Quote:
Stahrwe I've been to jail services and at the altar call everyone invariably comes forward. I don't know if they are sincere, or just trying to score points with God or the warden but the conversion experience does not seem to stick and I call shenanigans on the statistics.
Well I had an atheist on my last unit and he did not go to service… however the vast majority did… to varying services, they were choosy about which religious service they attended… that says to me that it meant something to them… in my conversations most inmates went to church as children and appeared to honestly believe… they even had prayer groups and bible study among themselves... as you often say the poor are drawn to Christianity… that seems to be true, but you know something else that is true... the poor also make up a large portion of the inmates in jail.
At any rate the fact that even though you admit that you “don't know if they are sincere” and still able to totally dismiss the numbers as "shenanigans" as well as the supporting happiness polls from the more secular nations tells me that you may not be seeing the whole picture.
Later
_________________ That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Re: religious instruction
Quote:
but obviously I didn't care for your comparison of teaching my children religion with teaching prejudice and hatred. So why don't we leave that little spat where it lies.
I never said anything about you teaching your children anything. I did not know if or if not you had children. You must have read my post out of context to one of yours.
Quote:
You can compare situations to Jacob, or Samson, or Peter, or Paul.
Can you believe I successfully brought up one individual without recourse to any of the above mentioned? In fact I do not remember referencing any other individuals other than those in our own lives for any lessons. I also was never too stern.
She in her turn did the same with her two children although they do know Lion & Wardrobe, E.T., Harry Potter, et al. She also was never too stern. Her children were brought up in a loving, supportive environment and they in turn are that way to the others in their lives. The parents are very closely involved in their childrens lives and the children do have restrictions placed on their behavior. (mostly to do with being alone with the opposite sex and not riding in cars with new drivers.) Anything to do with drink and/or drugs could not happen because of supervision and when the children give a party, all liquor is removed from any availability to any guests that are underage. This has become a very serious legal infraction here in most states.
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Re: religious instruction
Lady of Shallot -
If I have not already said I think people can do all the important moral things without religion, then I am remiss. I have no problem with that. I think it is a valuable activity, and a valuable social activity, but I am in it for the relationship I have, not to support some positive social activity. And I quite understand that for some it is a negative presence and a good thing to avoid.
I do sometimes bother to explain that the "content" of religion is not in the literal content of what the Bible says, in my view. It works much more like literature. (And one can also do without literature, but I would not want to.) The content is in the deep emotional resonances, and the values understandings, that come from the scriptures and other religious sources. The practices of religion are built around social decision-making and personal soul-searching, inspired by the content referred to.
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