Reasons 21 - 30

Chris OConnor · Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:37 pm

Reasons 21 - 30

Please use this thread for discussing Reasons 21 - 30:

21. I don't lose anything by believing in my god.

22. I didn't come from a monkey.

23. I don't want to go to hell.

24. I feel my god when I pray.

25. I need my god to protect me.

26. I want eternal life.

27. Without my god we would have no sense of right and wrong.

28. My god makes me feel like I am part of something bigger than myself.

29. My religion makes more sense than all the others.

30. My god changes lives.

Penelope · Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:51 pm

21. I don't lose anything by believing in my god.

I sure would lose a lot of intellectual exercise if became an atheist!

22. I didn't come from a monkey.

My body may have evolved from a monkey, or a fish or a lizard, but my soul is part of God/Brahma/the Infinite etc.....

23. I don't want to go to hell.

I don't want to cut myself off from the spiritual - the real. Earthly life seems to be delusional.

24. I feel my god when I pray.

I get in touch with the 'God/Real' part of me when I pray.

25. I need my god to protect me.

I need the god part of me to protect me from taking this transitory life too seriously

26. I want eternal life.

I have eternal life.....I have plenty of time to find my way home, and so have you.

27. Without my god we would have no sense of right and wrong.

Without the god part of me I wouldn't even care what was right or wrong!

28. My god makes me feel like I am part of something bigger than myself.

I am infinitely big and infinitely small.....because it isn't about size, or matter, it is about soul.

29. My religion makes more sense than all the others.

My religion only makes sense to me; because my questions and concerns are not the same as another person's who has different experiences, being born of a different gender or in different life circumstances.

30. My god changes lives.

The god part of me helps me to change my priorities and perceptions about my life.

Chris OConnor · Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:45 pm


	Penelope wrote: "I sure would lose a lot of intellectual exercise if became an atheist!"

How so? Believing in a god takes more intellectual energy than thinking critically? This is the first time I have ever heard this position put forth.

Chris OConnor · Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:56 pm


	Quote: My body may have evolved from a monkey, or a fish or a lizard, but my soul is part of God/Brahma/the Infinite etc.....

Actually, your body didn't evolve from a monkey. No credible scientist has ever made that argument.

Chris OConnor · Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:59 pm


	Penelope wrote: Without the god part of me I wouldn't even care what was right or wrong!

I am obviously an atheist and I'd argue that I completely lack the "god part," whatever that may be, but for some mysterious reason I care deeply about right and wrong. Why is this?

Penelope · Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:27 am

Chris I am replying to this backside foremost because I haven't quite got the hang of placing multiple quotes.


	Quote: I am obviously an atheist and I'd argue that I completely lack the "god part," whatever that may be, but for some mysterious reason I care deeply about right and wrong. Why is this?

I would say it is because you have a 'soul' a 'god part of you' - otherwise we would both be as carefree as birds.....and wouldn't give a toss.


	Quote: How so? Believing in a god takes more intellectual energy than thinking critically? This is the first time I have ever heard this position put forth.

Believing in what you are told by your parents and society takes no intellect at all....just swallow, don't think.

But thinking critically about theism is actually a lifelong intellectual exercise. Our questions are merely different ones Chris -in that you are asking 'How' we come to be here because that is absorbing to you.

I am asking 'Why' -

my search is for meaning......
Your search is for reason.....

both legitimate - both intellectual exercises.

Sorry for elongating......your threads.

But not sorry enough to stop doing it. :smile:

Chris OConnor · Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:10 am


	Quote: But thinking critically about theism is actually a lifelong intellectual exercise. Our questions are merely different ones Chris -in that you are asking 'How' we come to be here because that is absorbing to you. I am asking 'Why' -

I'm not sure there has to be a "why." It is our anthropocentricity that leads humans to believe there really is a why to existence. But you're right in that I am not asking the why question and you are. It would only be after discovering that there is intelligence behind human origins that I would begin to ask the why question. Without a plan or design and a planner or designer the why question seems meaningless.

I suppose this discussion illuminates another "cost of believing," that we can add to the long list Guy P. Harrison runs through in Chapter 21: "I don't lose anything by believing in my god." It appears a believer does lose a great deal by believing. Belief in a form of intelligence behind the origins of life and the universe causes the believer to ask unnecessary questions, such as "why" we are here. Instead of focusing on the real question of how things originated, the believer, assuming they already know the how starts to ask questions that are rendered meaningless (if their original assumption is wrong). Do you agree that the question of "why" is rendered meaningless if the question of "how" doesn't show intelligent design?

Some questions only make sense if something else is known first. For example, I'm sure you would agree that the question of, "Is the Loch Ness Monster an herbivore, carnivore or omnivore?" is a meaningless question if the question of "Does the Loch Ness Monster exist?" is not answered first.

Likewise, it is meaningless to ask about "why" humans were created if you haven't first answered the question of "who" or "what" created humans.

Further example:

"Why were igneous rocks created?" - Nonsense question because there isn't an intelligence that created igneous rocks. Igneous rocks are formed by the solidification of cooled molten rock. The "why" question is senseless in this example. There isn't a reason why.

"Why was that chair created?" - This question makes sense because we know that chairs have an intelligent designer. We already know the answer to the "how" question so it makes sense then to ask why the intelligent designer decided to create the chair.

And this is why I focus on the "how" and not the "why." You have to know how something was created before you can ask "why" it was created. Nature doesn't have a "why" answer and if nature if responsible for creating something then you needn't ask questions about the mind of nature. Nature doesn't have a mind.

Penelope · Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:46 am

What a good reply Chris - thank you.

Unfortunately - I'm afraid, I am a 'why' person. I have been all my life, in spite of close-proximity opposition, asking why, and receiving enough response to keep me interested.

Dylan Thomas records in one of his poems....that he received a book for Christmas when he was a little boy which told you everything you could ever want to know about wasps - except why? :laugh:

Still, I promise I will try to restrain myself in future.....causing long threads and annoying Mr P......it just isn't on is it?

Chris OConnor · Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:08 am


	Quote: Unfortunately - I'm afraid, I am a 'why' person.

But Penelope, I think I just showed you that asking "why" is nonsensical in some cases. How can you just reiterate that you are a "why" person even after being shown that being a "why" person doesn't always make sense?

This is what frustrates me about theism. Even when faced with pure and sound reasoning the average theist marches forward never faltering in their faith. A freethinker is always open to new ideas and refutations of old ideas. How can you claim to be a freethinker on one hand, yet persist in being irrational on the other? Do you not see the contradiction?

Do you ask "why" an igneous rock formed or "how" it formed? It is only after you determine that an intelligent being created the igneous rock that it makes sense to then ask why they created it. Doesn't this make sense to you?

Penelope · Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:25 am

You asked me earlier, on another thread, Why you cared so deeply about right and wrong.......so you are asking why too.

I have altered my thinking and ideas quite radically over my lifetime. I have rejected totally the - 'representation' of God and Religion which I grew up with.

But I have never thought it possible to reject the idea of 'God' although I don't think of it as an entity now. It would be like me denying the existence of 'Cheese' - I know it is there because I can 'taste' it. I know it isn't soap, or chalk....or a holographic image - because I can taste it. I can experience the cheese.......

I can experience the spirit and read other peoples' experiences which are often like my own....so I know I am not alone in what you call my delusions.

Penelope · Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:29 am

But if someone said to you that they didn't believe in Mushrooms......and asked you what they tasted like....how could you explain it to them.

Mushrooms have a taste of their own....not like anything else.....

The person would have to taste it for themselves.

Well, that is what it is like for me, trying to explain to you.....

Chris OConnor · Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:31 am


	Quote: so I know I am not alone in what you call my delusions.

Please don't go back to this term when it wasn't anywhere in my last post. I asked a few reasonable questions and you've answered none.

I'm a "why" person too. But I only ask why when asking why makes sense. You seem to not want to discuss the fact that sometimes why doesn't apply.

Chris OConnor · Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:34 am

In all honesty this discussion isn't making sense so I'm going to again back out of it. I'm not a very patient person in situations like this and I don't like who I become as I grow frustrated. So let's agree to disagree.

Penelope · Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:42 am

OK - I am trying to answer you!!!

I ask why, when we are self-aware, conscious beings, we live our little lives....much of which is very pleasurable.....but we look out and see other peoples lives which are painful, brutal and short......I can't help asking why.......

I never ask why there are such things as igneous rocks because I am not really interested...the rocks are not conscious and don't suffer.

I must search for meaning....otherwise my life becomes meaningless and I would lose interest in it.

I know that you don't feel the need to ask why.....neither does Ophelia and neither does my husband. But I can't help asking why.....believe me I have made a conscious decision in the past to stop this questioning....but it just is not possible for me. There are others like me...Thomas Hood....I think, if you want a name you recognise. And, actually, I rather think Robert Tulip.

When you suggest that I stop asking why...and suggest that I ask how...you might as well ask a flower to become a vegetable.

Chris OConnor · Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:56 am

Penelope, for some reason you're not understanding me. I will assume it is because I'm not making sense. I will try to be more clear here.


	Quote: I know that you don't feel the need to ask why.....neither does Ophelia and neither does my husband.

This is a false statement. I do ask why, but only when asking why makes sense. Likewise, I do not ask where or when questions when asking where or when questions is meaningless. After this post of mine I should not hear you say that you consider me a how person and not a why person. I have now explained myself. I'm both a why and a how person, but sometimes there simply isn't a why answer to a question. Please tell me this makes sense, because I don't know how else to explain myself.


	Quote: But I can't help asking why.....believe me I have made a conscious decision in the past to stop this questioning....but it just is not possible for me.

You don't have to stop asking why, but you cannot ask why in regards to everything you see around you. There must be an intelligence for their to be a why. Newcomers to this thread will need to read the full context of this discussion. I'm aware that you can ask "why is the sky blue?" and have that question make sense. That isn't the type of why question we're discussing.


	Quote: When you suggest that I stop asking why...and suggest that I ask how...you might as well ask a flower to become a vegetable.

Please tell me you understand me now. Please tell me you now realize I have NEVER asked you to stop asking why. I am simply suggesting that you don't ask meaningless why questions.

I ask why questions all day. An example would be:

Why are you not understanding me right now?


	Quote: But thinking critically about theism is actually a lifelong intellectual exercise. Our questions are merely different ones Chris -in that you are asking 'How' we come to be here because that is absorbing to you. I am asking 'Why' -

To help us get back on track the above is a quote of one of your posts.

My point is that you have to FIRST determine if humans got here through natural means or through supernatural means. This first step is essential and it answers the "how" question.

It is ONLY AFTER you have concluded that we got here due to supernatural means (God) that it makes sense to ask "Why did the supernatural entity create us?" But if there is a natural explanation for our origins it would make no sense to ask "Why did nature decide to create us," seeing as nature doesn't make decisions. Gravity doesn't consciously decide to pull stuff towards the center of a mass. Only intelligent and conscious entities can have reasons "why" they make decisions or take actions.

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