Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 2553 Images: 3 Location: Cheshire, England
Thanks: 144 Thanked: 273 times in 224 posts
Gender: Country:
Chris - I understand you perfectly!!
We are having a discussion which has gone on for centuries. Science versus Intuition (I suppose).
To you, the most important question of my life is meaningless, and I can't understand why you don't think it is an important question.
If you are feeling frustrated, disappointed, and deflated (not to say depressed)....let it be a comfort to you to know that I am feeling the same.
It is not my wish to feel like this, and it certainly isn't my wish to cause you to feel like it.....but you did throw down the guantlet....by introducing the '50 Reasons' book....and I could not just walk away and ignore it.....but rather than cause you further annoyance....I will.
But you will be horrified to know....that I am just moving over to the Poetry thread....and not getting out of your hair completely!!!!!
_________________ Think left and think right and think low and think high. Oh, the thinks you can think up if only you try. Dr. Seuss
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 11883 Images: 0 Location: Florida Highscores:145 Thanks: 735 Thanked: 339 times in 271 posts
Gender: Country:
And I understand that you believe God does exist and this is why you are asking the next question, which happens to be "why did God do this and that," but I am explaining to you that for those of us that don't believe a God exists it is borderline moronic of us to ask why this nonexistent God did this or that. Asking why God created humans is like inquiring why the Easter Bunny leaves Easter baskets.
Last edited by Chris OConnor on Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 2553 Images: 3 Location: Cheshire, England
Thanks: 144 Thanked: 273 times in 224 posts
Gender: Country:
No, you are wrong!!! I do not ask why God does this or that.
I ask how we can access the inate intelligence in us to cope with our various disasters and tragedies. I believe the inate intelligence is within us......the god part of us......but I do not refer to god as a separate entity from us...we are it.....this why Buddhism is a way of being...not a philosophy and not a religion. It does not try to pin down and image God.
It is called Brahma....it is a different way of thinking about ourselves.
So I do not equate god with the easter bunny or santa clause - and your inference is insulting, but I think you are being deliberately obtuse.
_________________ Think left and think right and think low and think high. Oh, the thinks you can think up if only you try. Dr. Seuss
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 2553 Images: 3 Location: Cheshire, England
Thanks: 144 Thanked: 273 times in 224 posts
Gender: Country:
Robert said:
Quote:
Penelope claims to see a distinction between intuition and imagination, but I really think this use of intuition is unhelpful in this context. It amounts to saying 'I feel that God exists' or 'my belief in God is comforting to me'. Harrison shows quite clearly that this may be fair at the level of popular sentiment, but lacks analytical credibility
I am by no means the only person to see a distinction between intuition and imagination. The compilers of the dictionaries seem to agree with me.
It does not amount to saying that I feel that God exists in my head - at all, and it is not merely a matter of comforting myself. It may lack analytical credibility to the worshipful Mr. Harrison and yourselves, but I began with a basic theory......and with a little help from many and varied writers on spiritual subjects (ie by no means all Christian) I found enough evidence to support my theory (making certain alterations along the way). This is how scientists work out support for their initial theories isn't it?
And before you say it Chris......I can't show you my evidence.....and I am not attempting to try to convince you of anything.....I only needed to convince myself over the years. 'Why are you partaking in this discussion then?' Is your next question. And the answer is because you confronted me with Mr. Harrison's silly book.
Now, I think you are going to suggest that I start believing in Yoda (the character you quote from Star Wars). Well, Yoda is a bad analogy, but I'll tell you what.....'The Force' is a brilliant analogy as to how I perceive God. But, Chris......it is only a perception....I am not claiming 'it' as exactly how it 'is'.
_________________ Think left and think right and think low and think high. Oh, the thinks you can think up if only you try. Dr. Seuss
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 3011 Location: Canberra
Thanks: 760 Thanked: 756 times in 567 posts
Gender: Country:
Penelope wrote:
Robert said:
Quote:
Penelope claims to see a distinction between intuition and imagination, but I really think this use of intuition is unhelpful in this context. It amounts to saying 'I feel that God exists' or 'my belief in God is comforting to me'. Harrison shows quite clearly that this may be fair at the level of popular sentiment, but lacks analytical credibility
I am by no means the only person to see a distinction between intuition and imagination. The compilers of the dictionaries seem to agree with me.
Here are some definitions of imagination
[quote] Definitions of imagination on the Web:
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 212 Location: San Francisco, CA
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender:
Thoughts on Chapter 21 -I don't loose anything beliveing
p162 - i'm pretty sure booktalk has had this discussion before, but, really what is the difference between a cult and a religion? Certainly the group that poisoned themselves in the 1970's or the ones who committed suicide before the comet arrival a few years back were cults. But what about the thing in Texas? Or the religion of money espoused by Crespo Dollar and the church of Greener Pastures (not making that up). Harrison speaks well regarding giving money to churches on p 165. I think his comments are nicely put. Most people agree that giving money to religion is a bad idea. If its not their religion! It really irks me to see people with so little giving to churches who are obviously just taking their money. I think watching the movie Marjoe (1972) should be required before anyone gives 1 penny to a church.
I do think he oversells the point on p166 where he sort of dismisses the positive aspects of joining a church. There are wonderful social benefits and like minded people are more likely to get things done together (social work, benefits, etc)
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 212 Location: San Francisco, CA
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender:
Chapter 22: Not from a monkey
generally agree with this chapter. But I think he misses one of the most powerful arguments about keeping religion out of evolution
Quote:
The official Catholic position is that human evolution was their god's process of creation
So what if it was? Science is valuable to society for one reason. It increases our predictive power. The application of science tells us how to build better buildings, roads, cars, etc. It tells us how we may be affecting our environment and the possible effect of various courses of action better than we would do without it. Compare the catholic position to the idea that god did not exist. There is NO change in the predictive value of the theory. Even if we KNEW that god used evolution, it still wouldn't help us. what does god want next? who knows We would still argue about what what god wanted next. With science, we can show cause and effect and accurately predict that, in the future, if we do X, Y will result. Obviously, these predictions are not always correct (look at the weather). But this is not the fault of science. this happens only because we have not yet learned to fully understand all the factors that go into the real world.
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 212 Location: San Francisco, CA
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender:
Chapter 23: I don't want to go to hell
well, who does? perhaps maybe only for a short visit. as an outsider....
p176. I think Harrison has a really good point here. would a just god eternally damn someone because they were born in a place where they never heard about the 'true' god and instead worshiped the god that they had always been told was the true god? that's just too cruel for me.
p177
Quote:
what sturck me as odd was that many of those people who were upset by Saddam's use of torture - President Bush for one - claimed to be followers of a belief system that is supposed to include eternal torture....
And then, of course, he authorized it. But i digress....
Overall impression of the chapter is that it was overplayed. If I recall catholic school correctly, hell was reserved for those with an opportunity to believe but rejecting it (i.e. I am doomed) god was not that cruel to those who did not know about jesus, they went to pergatory until the second coming, when they would be admitted to heaven
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 212 Location: San Francisco, CA
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender:
Chapter 25: Need god to protect me
p 186 - i'm not really sure of harrison's point here. the fact that he's not praying during this time is no more conclusive that there is no god than praying makes that there is a god.
Perhaps he's only focused on one side of the argument?
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 212 Location: San Francisco, CA
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender:
Chapter 26: i want eternal life
this chapter made no sense to me. He seems to say: perhaps you can live a really long time due to science. what does that have to do with my believe (or lack of belief) in god. I'm not sure he negates the point anywhere in the chapter. Do you?
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 212 Location: San Francisco, CA
Thanks: 0 Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender:
chapter 27: no sense of right and wrong
p 198 top paragraph. I think a believer would just argue that god is working within these people anyway, despite their lack of faith
p198 bottom paragraph. I wish he showed some statistics that showed the rate of incarceration vs. the rate of believe/non belief in the general population
p199 - i think his argument is relatively weak here. a believer would simply counter that these people are having moments of weakness caused by the devil
p202 - the point here about stalin and pol pot is a good one. even if atheists were evil, it would not show the existence of god.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
The 12th Disciple is now being
stocked at Poor Richard's
Bookstore in Colorado Springs.
We're happy to have the
title at such a historic
location in Colorado Springs.
If… more
For most of us, a very big
part of our lives will be a
dark place, we wont realize
it. We live, we eat, we have
some fun, we go to school, we
sleep. But it will come the
time, when… more
The 12th Disciple's
endorsement for a Presidential
Candidate...we'll pass.
If many haven't learned
over the past several decades,
centuries, and millennia, the
gover… more
So I've been looking for
new books to read, but I
haven't found any that
have caught my attention
lately. I want to try and
venture out into a different
genre, but I'… more
For those who constantly gripe
about jobs being sent
overseas, focus your anger on
this. Read about how one of
the most profitable companies
prided by American citizens
offshores t… more
Its January 1945 and British,
Commonwealth, US and POWs from
various other nationalities
are finally awaiting
liberation from the various
camps in Eastern Europe, where
some of the… more
A good friend of mine recently
received a pre-paid credit
card. She went to pay for a
$20.00 gas purchase only to
later find out that over a
$70.00 hold was placed on her
card for… more
While watching the bube tube
(TV) this morning I stumbled
on a motivational speaker
saying “today marks a new
year, you now have a blank
canvas to work from.”
The 12th Disciple wishes you
and yours a Happy New Year.
Many of us hope and pray that
2012 will bring better
leadership in the government
of the United States, better
leadership i… more
The Cat & The
Nightingale Saga, the docu
drama version of The Weekend
Trippers, also tells Rifleman
Ted TaylorÂ’s story but in a
slightly different way. It too
tells of the… more
In 2011 I published my book;
in the book I outlined 9 Key
Principles to Prosperity
(happiness). Like
many of you, I walked through
2011 with the Woe is me
attitude. When… more
More and more these days I see
people using social media to
quote what someone else has
said. I see people posting
their favorite rappers lyrics,
lines from movies and what
seems t… more
IÂ’m down the school for the
first time today. My friend
visited two weeks ago and said
it was chaos. They must have
heard I was back
because everything is tidy and
orderly today… more
I'm quite positive that
everyone who enters this site
has the same thing in mind:
fear of seeing a world without
books, without literature. We
see it everyday, more people
qui… more
For once in my life I step off
the plane at Banjul, and
donÂ’t get a rush of elation.
I went home to see my
daughterÂ’s twins safely
delivered. They are all well
now, but IÂ’m goin… more
Last weekend I witnessed a
couple of family members
literally fall apart at the
seams because of a problem
with a couple of their
employees. They recently
opened a group home, and
… more
Tell your friends when to meet you in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.
Booktalk.org on Facebook
If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.
BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.
Tweet This Topic
We would still argue about what what god wanted next. With science, we can show cause and effect and accurately predict that, in the future, if we do X, Y will result. Obviously, these predictions are not always correct (look at the weather). But this is not the fault of science. this happens only because we have not yet learned to fully understand all the factors that go into the real world.
