Rationally Speaking - Are you a Bright?

ZachSylvanus · Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:33 pm

But does Society consider them Good, Beautiful and True, or a necessary evil?

I would submit that they're held to be the latter, and none of the former. And even then, I think the public perception of them as the latter is shifting to remove that word "necessary".

Interbane · Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:20 pm

Interbane: Much of humanity believes that might equals right and power determines what is good, true, and beautiful? Show me evidence of this.

DH: "I mention two world wars, the great applause for two atomic bombs on Japan, and the general assent to the continued production of nuclear weapons exceeding 10,000 warheads...as shameful evidence."

That's not evidence for might equals right. Think about it harder, then try again.

GentleReader9 · Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:54 pm

I am really lost. Why in the world would anyone want to try to prove that most of humanity believes might makes right? Is that really something you have a stake in, Dissident Heart? I have no idea if it's true or not that most people believe that, but I sure hope it isn't. If it is I am hopelessly naive and lacking in awareness.

Sometimes people who see themselves as being pragmatic claim that power tends to more often show itself in the world of human affairs in the form of dominance, "power over," rather than cooperation, consensus, collaborative pooling of might which Starhawk calls "power with," or individual creativity and spiritual self-expression which she calls "power-from-within." I think this is not to argue that "might makes right," nor that most people think so; just that the exercise of power over, might, or dominance is prevalent due to people's fear of being dominated by others if they don't act that way themselves. This doesn't mean they think it's right or just or that justice and righteousness are defined by force. I think very few people think the latter, even people who do not believe in religious or spiritual moral codes often admit a difference between might and right. Or am I totally clueless?

Robert Tulip · Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:19 pm

'Might is right' is an instinctive evolutionary response - the ability of the strong to dominate the weak. It contrasts to reasoned theories of justice which restrain power to promote equality, as for example in the Christian gospels.

Dissident Heart · Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:46 pm


	Quote: Myself: The lie of traditional Christianity is a lie that much of humanity (has/does)succumbs to: might equals right and power determines what is good, true and beautiful.

My point was in identifying a sad but true dimension of humanity: one not limited to religion nor rare in the course of human events. After reading the news this morning about the many thousand refugees in the Congo, Darfur and Rwanda, the banning of relief aid to Gaza, and yet another suicide bombing in Iraq...and these are a tiny sampling of the current list of tragedies across the globe...not to mention the terrors of the last century...I think the point is accurate.

Interbane · Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:59 pm

I know what "might equals right" means.

DH, is the listing of these atrocities 'evidence' of us 'succumbing' to 'might equals right'? Do the perpetrators think their actions are correct because they are mighty? There is much to this that doesn't make sense, as if it's extremely oversimplified.

ZachSylvanus · Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:35 pm


	Robert Tulip wrote: 'Might is right' is an instinctive evolutionary response - the ability of the strong to dominate the weak.

That doesn't really reflect a strong grasp of evolutionary theory.

Robert Tulip · Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:24 pm

ZachSylvanus wrote:


	Robert Tulip wrote: 'Might is right' is an instinctive evolutionary response - the ability of the strong to dominate the weak.

That doesn't really reflect a strong grasp of evolutionary theory.

Yes, but what I was getting at was that the attitude of 'might is right' is a common evolved practice, not based on any theory. The relevance here is the similarity to the way religious beliefs and practices have evolved to suit their community, regardless of their epistemic merit. Practices evolve by precedent, often with no theoretical basis other than that they seem to work. 'Might is right' is in this category.

I was not supporting Social Darwinism in the way that survival of the fittest was misinterpreted in earlier times. The issue is that the mighty have evolved a common tendency to assume their power confers moral superiority. This is often part of their psychological power complex. An example is the motto of the British Coat of Arms 'God and My Right Arm' (Dieu et mon droit) - implying that might is right. The fact that it has evolved does not mean it is adaptive, as seen in the collapse of the British Empire. Evolution is full of organisms which became mighty in one way or another and then succumbed because their apparent might did not protect them from a real threat.

Interbane · Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:13 pm

That makes much more sense, thanks Robert. It seems to be a necessary result of the variance of human behavior. So though wasn't the purpose of religion to be allied with this mindset, as DH said, I think it still was inevitable.

I wish our ancient ancestors could have been given a glimpse into the future to see the consequences of the book they were writing. Even with good intentions, the world is too complex and sometimes turns those good intentions against us.

ZachSylvanus · Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:05 pm

Robert Tulip wrote:

ZachSylvanus wrote:


	Robert Tulip wrote: 'Might is right' is an instinctive evolutionary response - the ability of the strong to dominate the weak.

That doesn't really reflect a strong grasp of evolutionary theory.

Yes, but what I was getting at was that the attitude of 'might is right' is a common evolved practice, not based on any theory. The relevance here is the similarity to the way religious beliefs and practices have evolved to suit their community, regardless of their epistemic merit. Practices evolve by precedent, often with no theoretical basis other than that they seem to work. 'Might is right' is in this category.

Ah, my mistake. The way you worded it, i assumed you meant evolutionary theory.


	Quote: This is often part of their psychological power complex. An example is the motto of the British Coat of Arms 'God and My Right Arm' (Dieu et mon droit) - implying that might is right. The fact that it has evolved does not mean it is adaptive, as seen in the collapse of the British Empire. Evolution is full of organisms which became mighty in one way or another and then succumbed because their apparent might did not protect them from a real threat.

Not to be a pedant, but it's "God and my right", meaning right of birth.

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