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Penelope 
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 Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:08 am Post subject:
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Robert Tulip said:-
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| Setting out this as a formal argument from premises to conclusions is a challenge, which I hope to follow up on. |
Please try to make a comprehensible argument Robert, because no matter how I try....I am not capable...and thankyou, I do thankyou.
Chris said:-
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| You are feeling isolated only because this conversation involves so few people. I venture to say that Mr. Pessimistic and I would be the ones feeling isolated if just a few more BookTalk members joined in the discussion. Again, we're in the minority and I do know how it feels to be ganged up on. We weren't trying to do that to you so please forgive me...and Nick. |
Chris, I feel isolated because the spiritual journey is a lonely one. If one rejects the 'status quo' as you and your fellow-atheists do....and, believe it or not.....as I do.....then one does feel 'solitary'. Solitary is a good way of describing it. I don't feel 'special' or 'gifted' or anything else that you have intimated that I might be feeling.
I do, however, believe that loneliness is the human condition. I have talked heart-to-heart with many people.....and we do some awful things to combat this feeling of loneliness. It is a real fear.....People join groups...not because they truely believe the teachings of that group...but just because they want to belong..... Scientists do it...Politicians do it..we are all tempted to do it.
I would like to chuck all spirituality aside and join you atheists who at least 'think' you are telling the truth and thinking clearly.
I can't because.....I don't just think with my brain. As Robert Tulip has begun to point out.....we are not just solid matter.....we are waves...and vibes.....I think with my brain.....I interpret with my mind. I don't just interpret the five senses....I have a very definite 'other' sense. And I think other people do too.....but they don't acknowledge it because they are afraid of seeming weird......
I know....I am weird. |
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Thomas Hood
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:37 am Post subject:
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| Penelope wrote: |
| . . . I feel isolated because the spiritual journey is a lonely one. . . I know....I am weird. |
weird -- Of, relating to, or suggestive of the preternatural or supernatural.
I'm weird and proud of it. Only, unlike yourself, my parents were most unweird. However, the above dictionary definition is misleading. Weird is natural, only we can't see it unless we specially look for it, the reason being (don't punish me for this) inattentional blindness. See how helpful science can be?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inattentional_blindness
Tom |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject:
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Tom said:-
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| weird -- Of, relating to, or suggestive of the preternatural or supernatural. |
I use the word 'weird' because it sounds just about right...in describing myself........in that, I feel absolutely sure that every other human being has a sixth sense....which they choose to ignore because it does not fit in with received 'conditioning'.
I do not understand why people, in the Western World at least, where we are not preoccupied with the need to just keep body and soul together....(ie: we are not hungry)....we have a certain amount of leisure time and yet we spend that time on anything other than paying attention to that part of us which is intuitive. We use, and pander to, our other five senses and yet for some reason....people choose to ignore this sixth sense. To me it is the part of me that is vital....alive....and interesting.
Tom, you teased me once, by saying that I see visions.....well I don't see visions. I don't hear voices......but I am interested in the fact that water has a memory.....living cells have memories. That is something which I like to pay attention to.....it is intriguing. I don't think I am any more psychically endowed than the next person.....it is just that I pay more attention to my intuitive side. I suppose it is how an artist pays attention to his artistic side, whilst others choose to ignore theirs.
Because, over the years...I have paid attention to my intuitions (ie: I never wear a watch...and I always know what time it is...and I am never late for appointments).....I think, because I have paid attention to this 'other' sense....I have become more able to use it.
I have become more able to differentiate between what is my imagination and what is real intuition......it is useful...and I think it is a shame that this is one of our real senses which is not used. ........not even acknowledged as existing. |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject:
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P.S. Both my parents were very 'odd' not to say 'weird'......but they were both very lovable...and loved....not just by me.  |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject:
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PPS....I just wanted to add.....
I also don't get lost physically......I always catch the right bus, or train...and I can always find a parking space!!!!
I have a lovely husband and family and grandson....so I am not physically lonely and solitary........BUT
Mentally......I am a cobweb.........I feel completely lost.....and I definitely can't find a parking space!!
Some one once told me to think....'You are not lost if you don't 'care' where you are'.......well, unfortunately.....I do care......I care about my own psyche, but also I care about the human race.....I am rather fond of them.......
So come on you guys.......my dear boffins out there on the World Wide Web.......tell me.....do you feel lost too? |
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Thomas Hood
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject:
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| Penelope wrote: |
| ....we have a certain amount of leisure time and yet we spend that time on anything other than paying attention to that part of us which is intuitive. |
Truly. |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject:
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Truely...?
I will try myself....to pay less attention to my intuitive part.....and I bet you it comes up and hits me in the face....
Watch this space!!! |
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Lawrence
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: lost and lonely
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So come on you guys.......my dear boffins out there on the World Wide Web.......tell me.....do you feel lost too?
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I believe we are born alone, we live alone and die alone - in community.
re: Lost If you don't know where you are going you will surely get there.
Lost presumes you know where you are going. Seldom is that the case.
The difference between alone and lonely is; being alone is being without a companion. Being lonely is just being and wanting to be with someone or someone else.
Robert you use the words corporeal and spiritual. I believe the word spiritual is so corroded by religious application the word ethereal might be better used and less misunderstood.
Penelope, you may have mentioned this and I have not seen it but the feminine characteristic of “diffused awareness” and the masculine trait of “linier focus” creates such a difference between us I can’t conceive of men ever having the “6th” sense you describe. As we can’t have babies, for the same comparable reason, I don’t believe we can have the feminine sensitivity.
For the first time in my life I do not feel lost, alone, or lonely and am very comfortable with my thoughts. It really feels peaceful and I wish it for you Ms P if that is what you desire. |
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Robert Tulip
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: lost and lonely
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| lawrenceindestin wrote: |
| Robert you use the words corporeal and spiritual. I believe the word spiritual is so corroded by religious application the word ethereal might be better used and less misunderstood. |
Hi Lawrence. Spiritual has a lot of baggage as a word, but I think it is better to redefine old words than to abandon them. Ethereal also has connections to pre-modern ideas. I think both of these words can be understood in a physical framework. In our recent conversation about Richard Dawkins I deliberately used the words damned and salvation, knowing they are loaded with cultural references, as of course is discussion of God. |
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Lawrence
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: spiritual
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| OK! My friend Maarten Van Swaay agrees with you about redefining old words. I'm good with that. "Oral or written conversation is a defective means of communication." That's why I enjoy reading Stephen Pinker's work although I can't say I understand much of it. Always good to exchange thoughts with you. L |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:44 am Post subject:
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Lawrence said:
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| Penelope, you may have mentioned this and I have not seen it but the feminine characteristic of “diffused awareness” and the masculine trait of “linier focus” creates such a difference between us I can’t conceive of men ever having the “6th” sense you describe. As we can’t have babies, for the same comparable reason, I don’t believe we can have the feminine sensitivity. |
Well Lawrence, you are a man....and though you stipulate 'feminine sensitivity'....you are obviously a sensitive person....as proven by your posts and your blog. Actually, it was a man who helped to give me confidence in my intuition.....he said, 'Use it or lose it'. I have found that if one practises and learns to trust it....then it becomes more and more tangible and useful.
It is difficult to convey ones attitude when making these posts. I am glad that you feel so comfortable with your 'thoughts'. This is something I try to emulate. However, although I know that I must appear from my posts, rather turbulent......I am usually, a very happy person. I like the questions. It keeps me interested and absorbed with life. I feel sad only that I don't often find people to discuss these issues with.....people are usually attempting to pedal their own doctrine....or denying the existence of intuition.....or....more often....it makes them feel uncomfortable and I find my friends prefer to discuss more mundane matters. But this is what I mean when I say....I can't find a mental parking place.....
For example....I talk about these things (though not a much as I used to) with my husband, the engineer....who doesn't like to have anything to do with 'spiritual' matters.....like Chris and Frank and Nick.....he thinks it holds us back as human beings. Still, even he admits that when he was working on his research....and he had a problem with one of his designs, he would stop thinking about it.....go to bed and sleep....and in the morning the solution would have come to him....as though it had percolated through his brain whilst he was asleep......but dare I ever suggest that this was his intuition working? No, no, no.
Fortunately....my intuition always tells me when to shut up.....so perhaps that is why we have remained married for so long.... 
I was going to say 'happily' married .......well, I am happily married....pause...perhaps my husband isn't!!! |
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Lawrence
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: how fun
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How fun Ms. P. Now I know what to pray for you. Your married to a gear head. You butterflies always go for the opposite. Your right, knowing when to be quiet keeps you from being ground up in the gears. Let me tell you that your husband is happy with this story.
On their 50th wedding anniversary the wife cried to her husband, "You never tell me you love me." The husband looked up shocked and said, "I told you I loved you on our wedding day. If anything would have changed I'd a told you so."
Another story. The female computer has bells and whistles, dials, switches, relays, components and speakers. The male computer has an on off switch.
You know a man is planning for the future when he buys two cases of beer.
And finally:Man says to God: 'God, why did you make woman so
beautiful?' God says: 'So you would love her.'
But God,' the man says, 'why did you make her so
dumb?' God says: 'So she would love you.'
Have a happy day. L |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject:
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Thank you Lawrence......thank you so much.
Where would we be without our 'God-Given' sense of humour!!!!
Lawrence said:-
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| The female computer has bells and whistles, dials, switches, relays, components and speakers. The male computer has an on off switch. |
Whereas I agree...that we women are terribly preoccupied with 'relationships'.....hence my insistance on telling Chris, Nick and Frank, and you Lawrence, that....I do 'like' you. You might have noticed that Chris....in surley mode ......said that whether I liked him or not was irrellevant.....but to me it is important that I like the people with whom I argue....because then I know my motives are pure......and that my intuition is in excellent working order. (ie....I know who NOT to bother discussing or arguing with.)
So I can read 'relationships'.......but I can't read a map!!!!
Quote Lawrence:
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| Now I know what to pray for you. |
I will be so happy to know that you pray for me. And I pray a prayer of gratitude for having met you......and, believe it or not.....Chris, Nick, Frank and Theo.......so please excuse me.  |
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:22 am Post subject:
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| You might have noticed that Chris....in surley mode ......said that whether I liked him or not was irrellevant.....but to me it is important that I like the people with whom I argue....because then I know my motives are pure......and that my intuition is in excellent working order. (ie....I know who NOT to bother discussing or arguing with.) |
My past statement had a context that eludes me at this point. I assume I was saying that how we feel about one another doesn't influence the validity of our arguments.
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| On their 50th wedding anniversary the wife cried to her husband, "You never tell me you love me." The husband looked up shocked and said, "I told you I loved you on our wedding day. If anything would have changed I'd a told you so." |
LOL This would be horrible. |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject:
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Chris O'Connor said:-
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| My past statement had a context that eludes me at this point. I assume I was saying that how we feel about one another doesn't influence the validity of our arguments. |
I have forgotten too......Chris 
But, how we feel about one another doesn't, perhaps, influence the validity of our arguments....but it does influence how we react......
Don't you think this is important? |
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