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Penelope 
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 Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject:
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Mr. P Said:-
We just dont accept it. It is not for us. |
You are using the 'Royal We' again.....
How do you define - Free Thinking???????
Free Thinking.....is NOT about - We and Us....it is about I and Me.....it is personal....
Conversation is personal....between two people......
Indoctrination and Mental Conditioning.....happen to 'The Crowd'.
Sorry, but I'm not having any of that 'we' business!!!!! From you lot....or from that lot...... |
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject:
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| But, my argument is that we are not 'just' corporal beings.....we are also spiritual.....it seems that this is the crucial argument......... |
You haven't made an argument. Stating that we are spiritual beings is a conclusion. Now show us your premises. |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject:
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Chris - I have just answered your post to the best of my ability on the 'Moron' thread......
I guess my premise......is myself......
I don't know whether I was born with a 'fey' spiritual nature....or whether my life experiences made me this way.......
But I sure as hell haven't been indoctrinated!!!!!
Can we stop this discussion now......because I have no 'We' and 'Us' and I am just feeling more and more isolated......not good.
You can number me with the Morons......not of exceptional intelligence at all. |
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject:
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Yes, we can drop it. Making you feel isolated wasn't my intention so I apologize. I guess I was hoping for you to realize that your reason for believing in certain things isn't very reasonable at all. Truthfully, I was hoping for too much. Very few theists are impacted by the introduction of logic into the debate.
So you don't like that isolated feeling much?
Imagine how us atheists feel. We're in an extreme minority and are constantly dealing with being judged, shunned and isolated. It sucks. The only thing that helps me keep my head clear and deal with the crappy way most theists treat me is that I'm bright enough to look around at who my fellow atheists are. I'm in really good company.
You are feeling isolated only because this conversation involves so few people. I venture to say that Mr. Pessimistic and I would be the ones feeling isolated if just a few more BookTalk members joined in the discussion. Again, we're in the minority and I do know how it feels to be ganged up on. We weren't trying to do that to you so please forgive me...and Nick. |
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Robert Tulip
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:06 am Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
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| But, my argument is that we are not 'just' corporal beings.....we are also spiritual.....it seems that this is the crucial argument......... |
You haven't made an argument. Stating that we are spiritual beings is a conclusion. Now show us your premises. |
Hi Chris, this was a rather robust exchange, which I found intriguing. In my most austere atheist moods I have at times believed that spirituality is an illusion, but I now find the rationalistic rejection of spirituality is a rather barren and false claim. To me, the relation between matter and spirit is somewhat like the quantum finding that we are both particles and waves - as particles we are corporeal, but as waves we are spirit. Another way to put it is that our thoughts exist as chemical processes in the brain, but they also exist as representations of their object, serving to connect us with what ever we are thinking about. This connection is purely spiritual as it has no material correlate. My view is that spirit connects us to time, revealing us as beings whose existence is more than the present moment, but rather imbedded in the past and open to the future. Core moral values reflect this instinctive temporality.
I think there is a natural spirituality in the world. I view it in terms of evolution, in that entities which are most strongly adapted to their niche are thereby highly spiritual, while maladapted entities tend to lack spirituality. So I think of ancient forests, where ecosystems have had millions of years getting used to their environment, as the most spiritual of places, simply because in those places we are in the presence of those millions of years of genetic experience. By comparison churches are rather shallow in their spirituality. There is a sort of sense in which prayer suffuses the building itself in a magical way, but I can't help seeing the false consciousness of churches as detracting heavily from their spirituality.
Setting out this as a formal argument from premises to conclusions is a challenge, which I hope to follow up on. |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:08 am Post subject:
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Robert Tulip said:-
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| Setting out this as a formal argument from premises to conclusions is a challenge, which I hope to follow up on. |
Please try to make a comprehensible argument Robert, because no matter how I try....I am not capable...and thankyou, I do thankyou.
Chris said:-
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| You are feeling isolated only because this conversation involves so few people. I venture to say that Mr. Pessimistic and I would be the ones feeling isolated if just a few more BookTalk members joined in the discussion. Again, we're in the minority and I do know how it feels to be ganged up on. We weren't trying to do that to you so please forgive me...and Nick. |
Chris, I feel isolated because the spiritual journey is a lonely one. If one rejects the 'status quo' as you and your fellow-atheists do....and, believe it or not.....as I do.....then one does feel 'solitary'. Solitary is a good way of describing it. I don't feel 'special' or 'gifted' or anything else that you have intimated that I might be feeling.
I do, however, believe that loneliness is the human condition. I have talked heart-to-heart with many people.....and we do some awful things to combat this feeling of loneliness. It is a real fear.....People join groups...not because they truely believe the teachings of that group...but just because they want to belong..... Scientists do it...Politicians do it..we are all tempted to do it.
I would like to chuck all spirituality aside and join you atheists who at least 'think' you are telling the truth and thinking clearly.
I can't because.....I don't just think with my brain. As Robert Tulip has begun to point out.....we are not just solid matter.....we are waves...and vibes.....I think with my brain.....I interpret with my mind. I don't just interpret the five senses....I have a very definite 'other' sense. And I think other people do too.....but they don't acknowledge it because they are afraid of seeming weird......
I know....I am weird. |
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Thomas Hood
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:37 am Post subject:
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| Penelope wrote: |
| . . . I feel isolated because the spiritual journey is a lonely one. . . I know....I am weird. |
weird -- Of, relating to, or suggestive of the preternatural or supernatural.
I'm weird and proud of it. Only, unlike yourself, my parents were most unweird. However, the above dictionary definition is misleading. Weird is natural, only we can't see it unless we specially look for it, the reason being (don't punish me for this) inattentional blindness. See how helpful science can be?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inattentional_blindness
Tom |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject:
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Tom said:-
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| weird -- Of, relating to, or suggestive of the preternatural or supernatural. |
I use the word 'weird' because it sounds just about right...in describing myself........in that, I feel absolutely sure that every other human being has a sixth sense....which they choose to ignore because it does not fit in with received 'conditioning'.
I do not understand why people, in the Western World at least, where we are not preoccupied with the need to just keep body and soul together....(ie: we are not hungry)....we have a certain amount of leisure time and yet we spend that time on anything other than paying attention to that part of us which is intuitive. We use, and pander to, our other five senses and yet for some reason....people choose to ignore this sixth sense. To me it is the part of me that is vital....alive....and interesting.
Tom, you teased me once, by saying that I see visions.....well I don't see visions. I don't hear voices......but I am interested in the fact that water has a memory.....living cells have memories. That is something which I like to pay attention to.....it is intriguing. I don't think I am any more psychically endowed than the next person.....it is just that I pay more attention to my intuitive side. I suppose it is how an artist pays attention to his artistic side, whilst others choose to ignore theirs.
Because, over the years...I have paid attention to my intuitions (ie: I never wear a watch...and I always know what time it is...and I am never late for appointments).....I think, because I have paid attention to this 'other' sense....I have become more able to use it.
I have become more able to differentiate between what is my imagination and what is real intuition......it is useful...and I think it is a shame that this is one of our real senses which is not used. ........not even acknowledged as existing. |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject:
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P.S. Both my parents were very 'odd' not to say 'weird'......but they were both very lovable...and loved....not just by me.  |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject:
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PPS....I just wanted to add.....
I also don't get lost physically......I always catch the right bus, or train...and I can always find a parking space!!!!
I have a lovely husband and family and grandson....so I am not physically lonely and solitary........BUT
Mentally......I am a cobweb.........I feel completely lost.....and I definitely can't find a parking space!!
Some one once told me to think....'You are not lost if you don't 'care' where you are'.......well, unfortunately.....I do care......I care about my own psyche, but also I care about the human race.....I am rather fond of them.......
So come on you guys.......my dear boffins out there on the World Wide Web.......tell me.....do you feel lost too? |
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Thomas Hood
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject:
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| Penelope wrote: |
| ....we have a certain amount of leisure time and yet we spend that time on anything other than paying attention to that part of us which is intuitive. |
Truly. |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject:
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Truely...?
I will try myself....to pay less attention to my intuitive part.....and I bet you it comes up and hits me in the face....
Watch this space!!! |
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Lawrence
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: lost and lonely
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So come on you guys.......my dear boffins out there on the World Wide Web.......tell me.....do you feel lost too?
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I believe we are born alone, we live alone and die alone - in community.
re: Lost If you don't know where you are going you will surely get there.
Lost presumes you know where you are going. Seldom is that the case.
The difference between alone and lonely is; being alone is being without a companion. Being lonely is just being and wanting to be with someone or someone else.
Robert you use the words corporeal and spiritual. I believe the word spiritual is so corroded by religious application the word ethereal might be better used and less misunderstood.
Penelope, you may have mentioned this and I have not seen it but the feminine characteristic of “diffused awareness” and the masculine trait of “linier focus” creates such a difference between us I can’t conceive of men ever having the “6th” sense you describe. As we can’t have babies, for the same comparable reason, I don’t believe we can have the feminine sensitivity.
For the first time in my life I do not feel lost, alone, or lonely and am very comfortable with my thoughts. It really feels peaceful and I wish it for you Ms P if that is what you desire. |
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Robert Tulip
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: lost and lonely
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| lawrenceindestin wrote: |
| Robert you use the words corporeal and spiritual. I believe the word spiritual is so corroded by religious application the word ethereal might be better used and less misunderstood. |
Hi Lawrence. Spiritual has a lot of baggage as a word, but I think it is better to redefine old words than to abandon them. Ethereal also has connections to pre-modern ideas. I think both of these words can be understood in a physical framework. In our recent conversation about Richard Dawkins I deliberately used the words damned and salvation, knowing they are loaded with cultural references, as of course is discussion of God. |
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Lawrence
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: spiritual
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| OK! My friend Maarten Van Swaay agrees with you about redefining old words. I'm good with that. "Oral or written conversation is a defective means of communication." That's why I enjoy reading Stephen Pinker's work although I can't say I understand much of it. Always good to exchange thoughts with you. L |
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