I don't know if this discussion is still going on but I remember someone bringing up a major problem with determining the rationality of belief in god.

Basically the argument seems to be that without evidence belief in god is irrational.

But what constitutes evidence. If I recal it would need to be an event for which divine intervention is an explaination more likely then any other possibilities.

That leaves the question, how do you determine the likelyness of there being a god?

MeasterAuron

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But what constitutes evidence. If I recall it would need to be an event for which divine intervention is an explanation more likely then any other possibilities.

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What would we accept as evidence?

How about these...

You pray to Jesus/god or whoever and they appear to you like it says they will in the bible.

Evidence of some of the fabled miracles would be a good start, say a layer of earth around the Nile that was determined to have been soaked with blood from when the river ran red.

If there was some confirmation of the miracles from sources outside the bible; that would offer some validity to the argument.

Amputees re-growing limbs... heck if prayer actually worked at all.

Being witness to one of the more amazing miracles; say the parting of the red sea as seen in film, something of that magnitude.

The sun suddenly appeared as an old bearded man and spoke to the whole earth at once saying who he was and what he wants; as well as answering some of the more difficult scientific questions humanity is working on at the moment.

If the bible were indeed flawless and every page had some sort of awe inspiring information on it.

MeasterAuron

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That leaves the question, how do you determine the likeliness of there being a god?

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Let's see... the above evidence would help.

Without evidence you can't determine the likelihood of something's existence. But it does speak volumes about its nonexistence.

what kind of evidence might a god leave behind?

It really depends entirely on the nature of the god.

The Christian god should have left us with some sort of material evidence since he was (allegedly) so involved in humanities past, and he demands our worship under penalty of eternal damnation.

Furthermore he has no reason to hide, and every reason not to. He showed himself before with no ill effects on free will, (if you believe the bible anyway) and by showing himself he would get what he supposedly wants... our worship.

On the other hand nebulas gods that do not demand worship or interfere with humans need not be bothered with, and I doubt would leave any sort of identifiable evidence anyway since they have no steak in what we do.

Later

It sounds like one of the main things you want here is something physically impossible as far as we know. Doesn't Quantum say there's always an incredebly slight chance that something impossible will happen?

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You pray to Jesus/god or whoever and they appear to you like it says they will in the bible.

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In what manner does it say they'll apear to you?

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Evidence of some of the fabled miracles would be a good start, say a layer of earth around the Nile that was determined to have been soaked with blood from when the river ran red.

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That wont prove anything. Often rivers are described to have run red after great battles and massacres on the banks. It doesn't show that god did it.

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Amputees re-growing limbs... heck if prayer actually worked at all

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Lots of species re-grow limbs. Could be a new mutation which by coincedence only surfaces after a person enters some kind of relaxed state. Perhaps only the exact state acheived by the prayers of some religeon.

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Being witness to one of the more amazing miracles; say the parting of the red sea as seen in film, something of that magnitude.

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Once again what proof would we have that gods doing it. In Alexandria they would rig up mechanical doors on temples that opened when a fire was set on an altar. To ancient people this was an undenyable mirracle.

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The sun suddenly appeared as an old bearded man and spoke to the whole earth at once saying who he was and what he wants; as well as answering some of the more difficult scientific questions humanity is working on at the moment.

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Mass hallucination, hypnosis, an alien trick. How can we decide if these are more or less likely.

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Without evidence you can't determine the likelihood of something's existence. But it does speak volumes about its nonexistence.

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But how can you determine something as evidence if you don't know how likely it is?

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The Christian god should have left us with some sort of material evidence since he was (allegedly) so involved in humanities past, and he demands our worship under penalty of eternal damnation.

Furthermore he has no reason to hide, and every reason not to. He showed himself before with no ill effects on free will, (if you believe the bible anyway) and by showing himself he would get what he supposedly wants... our worship.

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If you interprit the Christian god that way.

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On the other hand nebulas gods that do not demand worship or interfere with humans need not be bothered with, and I doubt would leave any sort of identifiable evidence anyway since they have no steak in what we do.

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What about something like in between? It doesn't really matter in any case the question stands how do you determine something to be evidence?

MaesterAuron

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In what manner does it say they'll appear to you?

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In the bible he appears in the flesh to more than 500 people and later to Paul as an apparition in a vision, a vision so real that it could not be confused with a dream. Some people believe it could be either or both.

MaesterAuron

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That won't prove anything. Often rivers are described to have run red after great battles and massacres on the banks. It doesn't show that god did it.

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That was one example of a type of evidence to start from, as of right now there is absolutely nothing to corroborate the biblical account.

MaesterAuron

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Lots of species re-grow limbs. Could be a new mutation which by coincidence only surfaces after a person enters some kind of relaxed state. Perhaps only the exact state achieved by the prayers of some religion.

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I am not sure what you are saying here, there has never been a regenerated limb on a human being, and it is clear that prayer has only one somewhat unpredictable positive effect stress relief.

If positive impossible things did happen to the religious through prayer and only the religious, that would be convincing evidence.

MaesterAuron

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Once again what proof would we have that gods doing it. In Alexandria they would rig up mechanical doors on temples that opened when a fire was set on an altar. To ancient people this was an undeniable miracle.

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If it were clearly something beyond human engineering capabilities and only worked when envoked by believers in the name of god, I think that would say something, something like moving Mt. Everest to Central Park NY overnight when a public televised prayer asked for it to happen?

MaesterAuron

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Mass hallucination, hypnosis, an alien trick. How can we decide if these are more or less likely.

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Ok, add that he spoke in everyone's minds, added a warm fuzzy feeling of happy goodness and brought your closest dead relative back to life for you to visit with for the day.

MaesterAuron

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If you interpret the Christian god that way.

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I do not interpret him as anything but imaginary, but millions American Christians do think of god that way.

MaesterAuron

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It doesn't really matter in any case the question stands how do you determine something to be evidence?

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It would have to be clearly beyond human capabilities, it would have to be well documented from multiple sources, and would have to be untouchable by scientific theory. Finally it must be evoked by someone in the name of god or obviously peformed by god himself.

If there were a god he personally would know what would convince each of us and could come to us separately with that proof all at the same time.

But it won't happen.

Later

I have something to add...

I took this quote from the "Why doesn't god heal amputees" web site I think it sums up the Christian religion very well.

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"Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love. But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!"

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P.S. I will never give you a shred of evidence to confirm my existence or my divinity.

I added the P.S.

If there is a god and he is hiding than he is an absurd bastard because he must know that that behavior is going to damn millions of people, people he created as skeptical. Furthermore it is clear that he does not answer prayers or favor his believers in any way.

If there is a god he is a very nasty being or not involved with humanity at all, and is not deserving of worship or beneficial to us in any way.

Later

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In the bible he appears in the flesh to more than 500 people and later to Paul as an apparition in a vision, a vision so real that it could not be confused with a dream. Some people believe it could be either or both.

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A vison so real it could no be confused with a dream? When we dream it almost always seems real. Just a little while ago I dreamt I brougth my Xbox to school so I could check the time. In the dream it was completely real. Afterwards it was ridiculous.

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That was one example of a type of evidence to start from, as of right now there is absolutely nothing to corroborate the biblical account.

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There was a vulcanic erruption at the same time which could have produced many of the biblical effects.

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I am not sure what you are saying here, there has never been a regenerated limb on a human being, and it is clear that prayer has only one somewhat unpredictable positive effect stress relief.

If positive impossible things did happen to the religious through prayer and only the religious, that would be convincing evidence.

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How can we know if something was impossible? Remeber impossible things happen quite frequently at the quantum level, and there's always a very slight chance that those things will happen at the macro level.

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If it were clearly something beyond human engineering capabilities and only worked when envoked by believers in the name of god, I think that would say something, something like moving Mt. Everest to Central Park NY overnight when a public televised prayer asked for it to happen?

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Those temple doors were beyond human engineering capabilities as far as the worshipers knew.

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Ok, add that he spoke in everyone's minds, added a warm fuzzy feeling of happy goodness and brought your closest dead relative back to life for you to visit with for the day.

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That can still all be hallucinated, hypnotized or induced artificially.

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I do not interpret him as anything but imaginary, but millions American Christians do think of god that way.

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Well I'm not saying its a good way to think of it.

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It would have to be clearly beyond human capabilities, it would have to be well documented from multiple sources, and would have to be untouchable by scientific theory. Finally it must be evoked by someone in the name of god or obviously peformed by god himself.

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One problem. None of those criteria are verifiable. Whatever you come up with always has an alternative, no matter how low that alternative may be its still possible.

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If there were a god he personally would know what would convince each of us and could come to us separately with that proof all at the same time.

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Unless there was nothing that cold convince each of us. Or unless some people were not meant to believe in him.

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But it won't happen.

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Of course not we've both agreed that god would be a douch bag if he did something like that.

MeasterAuron

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A vision so real it could no be confused with a dream? When we dream it almost always seems real. Just a little while ago I dreamt I brought my Xbox to school so I could check the time. In the dream it was completely real. Afterwards it was ridiculous.

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I think afterwards is the key difference here, afterwards Paul said it was so very real, while after your dream you said it was ridiculous.

MeasterAuron

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There was a volcanic eruption at the same time which could have produced many of the biblical effects.

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Look at your words here "could have" leaving nothing supporting the biblical account.

MeasterAuron

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there's always a very slight chance that those things will happen at the macro level.

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When you see one then get back to me.

MeasterAuron

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Those temple doors were beyond human engineering capabilities as far as the worshipers knew.

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Maybe but those people were primitive without access to the knowledge or necessary materials to determine the truth; we have access to this knowledge and can make a good determination as to the type of engineering feats our race is capable of.

MeasterAuron

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That can still all be hallucinated, hypnotized or induced artificially.

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To every person on the planet? What technology do you have access to?

MeasterAuron

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One problem. None of those criteria are verifiable. Whatever you come up with always has an alternative, no matter how low that alternative may be its still possible.

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That's the point if it were well documented widely seen, and could not be explained by science than other alternatives must start to surface.

MeasterAuron

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Unless there was nothing that cold convince each of us. Or unless some people were not meant to believe in him.

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If god were all powerful he could convince anyone even if it took repeated attempts.

Later

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I think afterwards is the key difference here, afterwards Paul said it was so very real, while after your dream you said it was ridiculous.

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dellusions are very real to a pschitzophrenic.

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When you see one then get back to me.

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I'm no expert on quantum but I've heard part of it is that there's always uncertainty and always a slight chance of the impossible happening.

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Maybe but those people were primitive without access to the knowledge or necessary materials to determine the truth; we have access to this knowledge and can make a good determination as to the type of engineering feats our race is capable of.

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Technology can still be concealed from us. When did the public first become aware of stealth technology?

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To every person on the planet? What technology do you have access to?

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Could also just be a coincedence. I mentioned that as well.

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That's the point if it were well documented widely seen, and could not be explained by science than other alternatives must start to surface.

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Lots of things could "not be explained by science" throughout history. Why should we consider some new amazing event to be anything different.

And by alternatives I meant you're yet to come up with anything truely impossible.

MeasterAuron

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Delusions are very real to a schizophrenic.

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Yes they are and if we were discussing the bible here I would argue that Paul might have been a schizophrenic, but schizophrenic episodes do not manifest themselves to multiple people when asked to through prayer.

MeasterAuron

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I'm no expert on quantum but I've heard part of it is that there's always uncertainty and always a slight chance of the impossible happening.

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I have heard that that things that scientists once thought were impossible happen at the quantum level, but I had not heard that that would mean that it could happen at a macro level. And then there is the level of impossibility do people suddenly change gender, gravity reverse itself, planets flying through suns unharmed?

MeasterAuron

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Technology can still be concealed from us. When did the public first become aware of stealth technology?

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Yes but we have a firm grasp of things that are clearly beyond our technology, like the moving of Mt. Everest to Central Park NY overnight.

MeasterAuron

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Could also just be a coincidence. I mentioned that as well.

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So explain how a coincidence like that could happen.

MeasterAuron

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Lots of things could "not be explained by science" throughout history. Why should we consider some new amazing event to be anything different?

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Normally I wouldn't, but there are events so impossible that they would solidly land outside of scientific study.

MeasterAuron

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And by alternatives I meant you're yet to come up with anything truly impossible.

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How about walking through hot magma naked, skydiving from the space shuttle from high orbit with no protection other than a parachute? How about flying like superman to the moon and back, or holding ones breath and snorkel diving to the bottom of the deepest part of the worlds oceans, again only for believers at the request of god.

Even the amputee example is still valid here because once the possibility of coincidence is removed prayer has a zero percent success rate. If that were not the case there might be some validity to prayer.

Later

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Yes they are and if we were discussing the bible here I would argue that Paul might have been a schizophrenic, but schizophrenic episodes do not manifest themselves to multiple people when asked to through prayer.

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Isn't it physically possible.

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I have heard that that things that scientists once thought were impossible happen at the quantum level, but I had not heard that that would mean that it could happen at a macro level. And then there is the level of impossibility do people suddenly change gender, gravity reverse itself, planets flying through suns unharmed?

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The odds of impossible things happening at a macro level are astoundingly low from what I hear.

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Yes but we have a firm grasp of things that are clearly beyond our technology, like the moving of Mt. Everest to Central Park NY overnight.

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Who says it has to be our technology? And how can we be sure of what technology exists.

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So explain how a coincidence like that could happen.

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The point of a coincidence is there's no reason it happened it just did due to random unpredictablility.

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Normally I wouldn't, but there are events so impossible that they would solidly land outside of scientific study.

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And? Maybe our study is just not advanced enough to understand it.

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How about walking through hot magma naked, skydiving from the space shuttle from high orbit with no protection other than a parachute? How about flying like superman to the moon and back, or holding ones breath and snorkel diving to the bottom of the deepest part of the worlds oceans, again only for believers at the request of god.

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How will we be sure that these events are really happening? Even if we did it ourselves how would we know its not an illusion?

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MeasterAuron
Isn't it physically possible?

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Yes but only if all of the prayers are schizophrenic or delusional.

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MeasterAuron
The odds of impossible things happening at a macro level are astoundingly low from what I hear.

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Or impossible, if the impossible happened even once in a millennia life would not be able to exist on this planet.

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MeasterAuron
Who says it has to be our technology? And how can we be sure of what technology exists.

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We have physics to help us know what would be possible through technology and what should not.

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MeasterAuron
The point of a coincidence is there's no reason it happened it just did due to random unpredictability.

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Actually coincidence is predicted all of the time it is as reliable as the sun rising. Just as we know that some people will survive what is normally deemed terminal cancer, we can generally predict what events have a chance of being random enough to allow for coincidence.

My example is too impossible for coincidence to play a part.

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MeasterAuron
And? Maybe our study is just not advanced enough to understand it.

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That is always a possibility.

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MeasterAuron
How will we be sure that these events are really happening? Even if we did it ourselves how would we know it's not an illusion?

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The same way we would determine if any earthly action was really happening corroboration. In my example the events would be common enough to allow for study.

Later

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It's impossible to determine without evidence, but about the same as pink space unicorns or Galactic Chickens.

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We're going in circles here. How do you determine what's evidence without knowing the probability?

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Because any scientific answer would be insanely improbable

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above

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The simplest answer and so forth...

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Simplest? Last time I checked science was about finding the right answer no matter how complicated.

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Only impossible for them, not the entire planet's population, you are failing to grasp the numbers here or the whole picture.

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Who's to say that some super advanced culture wouldn't see these things as "impossible for them"

Besides your missing the point. The point is a particular word or name associated with something can't be considered evidence that that word or name has is the thing causing that something or even that it has any real purpose or meaning.

The whole computer thing is a metaphor to demonstrate this concept.

Nothing against your arguments, but I have simply lost interest in this thread.

Later

Thats fine with me. I've come across very few resolvable debates. This one had clearly reached the point where it wasn't going anywhere.

Edited by: MaesterAuron151 at: 1/26/07 11:30 pm

The problem with evidence is that evidence can screw up a perfectly good belief.