prayer

lady of shallot · Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:01 am

Today my favorite nephew enters the hospital to have open heart surgery. He is 51 and was born missing a valve, which luckily was recently discovered. (I understand that this is the same condition that killed John Ritter)

I was speculating on how much more effective will be the prayers of those who love and care for this man and who are religious. Much more effective now in 2011, than were those of the same people for his grandfather who died of heart decease in 1971.

Isn't it interesting that the efficacy of prayer increases as the science of medicine increases.

stahrwe · Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:15 pm


	lady of shallot wrote: Today my favorite nephew enters the hospital to have open heart surgery. He is 51 and was born missing a valve, which luckily was recently discovered. (I understand that this is the same condition that killed John Ritter) I was speculating on how much more effective will be the prayers of those who love and care for this man and who are religious. Much more effective now in 2011, than were those of the same people for his grandfather who died of heart decease in 1971. Isn't it interesting that the efficacy of prayer increases as the science of medicine increases.

You complain about being preached to and then post something like this. I suppose you want all the atheists to intertwine their fingers and looking very 'intellectual' nod in agreement and intone, 'Yes the primitive fools believing in the power of an imaginary deity.' In fact, the efficacy of prayer never changes; it did, does, and always will 'availeth much'.

Dexter · Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:34 pm


	stahrwe wrote: You complain about being preached to and then post something like this. I suppose you want all the atheists to intertwine their fingers and looking very 'intellectual' nod in agreement and intone, 'Yes the primitive fools believing in the power of an imaginary deity.' In fact, the efficacy of prayer never changes; it did, does, and always will 'availeth much'.

Do you believe that God answers personal prayers for healing? How does the Great One decide who to help? Do you have to kneel especially deep? If he intervenes on occasion, how can he (or anyone) justify letting so many innocents suffer?

realiz · Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:21 pm

I believe in the power of prayer, even if I don't believe in a God that sits up there listening and deciding which prayer to answer.

stahrwe · Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:41 pm

Dexter wrote:


	stahrwe wrote: You complain about being preached to and then post something like this. I suppose you want all the atheists to intertwine their fingers and looking very 'intellectual' nod in agreement and intone, 'Yes the primitive fools believing in the power of an imaginary deity.' In fact, the efficacy of prayer never changes; it did, does, and always will 'availeth much'.

Do you believe that God answers personal prayers for healing?
God answers all prayers.

How does the Great One decide who to help?
I don't know who the "Great One" is. This is a serious subject and deserves to be treated with respect. If you mean God say God, with a capital G.

Do you have to kneel especially deep?
One's attitude is important but one's attitude isn't.

If he intervenes on occasion, how can he (or anyone) justify letting so many innocents suffer?

If by he you mean He/God, why would God have to justify His actions to anyone let alone you? Your question took a detour with the addition of 'anyone'. If God is not obligated to explain to you why would He explain to me, and if He doesn't explain to me how can I explain to you?

Dexter · Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:03 pm


	stahrwe wrote: How does the Great One decide who to help? I don't know who the "Great One" is. This is a serious subject and deserves to be treated with respect. If you mean God say God, with a capital G.

I don't respect your god. I think he's a dick.

In fact I find the worship of such a figure to be offensive, so please stop. K thanks.

Harry Marks · Sat May 14, 2011 8:49 am

Did you know that if you incline your head more than about 5 degrees you are very likely to relate in the "child" mode (out of Parent, Child and Adult, or Superego, Id and Ego)?

There is something healthy about becoming a supplicant. Just as it is healthy to cry now and then. The whole point is to stop worrying about what you can do and just dwell in your longing.

Substantial time spent in prayer also begins to bend our longing toward caring. Why would anyone be against that?

lady of shallot · Sat May 14, 2011 1:08 pm

Harry Marks:


	Quote: There is something healthy about becoming a supplicant. Just as it is healthy to cry now and then. The whole point is to stop worrying about what you can do and just dwell in your longing.

There is not one sentiment expressed in this full post with which I agree. Well maybe about the "child" part of the ego.

This reminds me of a long ago happening. My grandson, then about 1 1/2 years (young enough to wear one of those footed blanket sleeper things) was swinging a French door back and forth and it was making a creaking noise, so I asked him quietly to please stop doing that. He is a very sensitive person and as we did not live near him and saw each other only infrequently and he knew I was a significant person in his life, was crushed. I didn't realize this till I saw him minutes later in another room, kneeling on the floor with his head bowed and his hands held in front of his chest. I doubt very much anyone had taught him to pray, so this attitude must have been natural to him. Of course I swooped him up and kissed him and hugged him. I did not tell him though that it was o.k. to swing the door.

I see nothing healthy about being a supplicant. In fact it is sick. It is o.k. to show respect for people like when Katherine and William bowed and curtseyed to the Queen after their wedding, but that is not the same as being a supplicant.

"Dwell in your longing?" Again very unhealthy. Why would one long for something that is unachievable? If something is sad or bad, like the situation with an old acquaintance I just ran into whose husband has dementia and is dying, of course she must bear it. But to dwell upon longing the inevitable is not so?

You are kind of interesting Harry as you think very originally and unlike anyone I have ever known. A non Christian who prays and believes in the literature of the Bible and treating people punitively for what I assume are very small infractions.

Harry Marks · Sun May 15, 2011 3:48 pm

lady of shallot wrote:

Harry Marks:


	Quote: There is something healthy about becoming a supplicant. Just as it is healthy to cry now and then. The whole point is to stop worrying about what you can do and just dwell in your longing.

There is not one sentiment expressed in this full post with which I agree. Well maybe about the "child" part of the ego.
I see nothing healthy about being a supplicant. In fact it is sick. It is o.k. to show respect for people like when Katherine and William bowed and curtseyed to the Queen after their wedding, but that is not the same as being a supplicant.

I stand by my statement. Most men have been supplicants to their wives at some point, for example. Michener makes a great deal of this in "Hawaii." If children pretend they want nothing from their parents, it is very unhealthy. Likewise we sometimes need things from others: information, feedback, validation, time, attention, etc. It is important not only to ask but to be clear we have no right to demand. Doesn't mean we are necessarily devastated if it doesn't happen. But it would be a form of denial to act as if it did not matter to us.


	Quote: "Dwell in your longing?" Again very unhealthy. Why would one long for something that is unachievable? If something is sad or bad, like the situation with an old acquaintance I just ran into whose husband has dementia and is dying, of course she must bear it. But to dwell upon longing the inevitable is not so?

Martin Luther King had a dream. And he had to dwell in his longing. He had to live a life in which he made emotional space for that dream without a lot of external sustenance. He also spent a lot of time working on it and organizing and planning and all the rest. But it is vital to recharge the batteries by remembering what we long for.


	Quote: You are kind of interesting Harry as you think very originally and unlike anyone I have ever known. A non Christian who prays and believes in the literature of the Bible and treating people punitively for what I assume are very small infractions.

I am a Christian, actually. I am not sorry that I don't fit your stereotype of one, but I think you would have no trouble finding people very much like me at any University church or any UCC. I think there may be some misunderstanding about treating people punitively for small infractions. I think I referred once to being overly stern. I have actually shouted at my family as well, and on one or two occasions gone beyond what I would really consider acceptable behavior in expressing anger toward my children, but not far beyond. I have been a full-time parent, and I can tell you that men are not socially equipped to manage the frustrations of raising children (many women are not, either), but that didn't stop me from doing a good job of it. But far from perfect.

You seem pretty interesting yourself. I like the advice you give - empathetic and sensible.

Interbane · Sun May 15, 2011 4:08 pm


	Quote: You complain about being preached to and then post something like this. I suppose you want all the atheists to intertwine their fingers and looking very 'intellectual' nod in agreement and intone, 'Yes the primitive fools believing in the power of an imaginary deity.' In fact, the efficacy of prayer never changes; it did, does, and always will 'availeth much'.

Prayer has no effect other than placebo. It's supernatural nonsense. Studies confirm this.

lady of shallot · Sun May 15, 2011 5:02 pm

Harry Marks:


	Quote: Likewise we sometimes need things from others: information, feedback, validation, time, attention, etc. It is important not only to ask but to be clear we have no right to demand.

Well of course this is just how life goes around. But I think of supplicant in the way my on-line dictionary defines it.

supplicate |ˈsəpliˌkāt|
verb [ intrans. ]
ask or beg for something earnestly or humbly : [with infinitive ] the plutocracy supplicated to be made peers.

Parenting is difficult for all of us and of course children are individuals who vary greatly in the ease with which they are parented.

I did not know you were a Christian. I have nothing against Christians (although an atheist myself) all of my family are Christians. Someday maybe someone will do a psychological study of individuals who are atheists and those who believe. I think it has more to do with individual differences in ones psyche than even in education, training, exposure etc.

Murrill · Sun May 15, 2011 6:50 pm


	Quote: Prayer has no effect other than placebo. It's supernatural nonsense. Studies confirm this.[

I do not pray, but I do meditate. I'm not sure that they are so dissimilar, and you may be right about the "placebo" effect. But there very gesture of meditation, prefaced with at least some modicum of willingness on my part to receive, changes me. It is then that I can release whatever separates me from my spirit--the anger, the depression, the confusion. That is when I can shed what makes me miserable and unpleasant, and I can locate my authentic self.
I am a non-theist. I do not entertain nonsensical notions that an interventionist diety will grant my wishes or send me more money to pay bills or heal my illness. What I seek is an internal shift that clarifies my mental and emotional state so I can better adapt. I am not seeking resolution from an external source. I believe that I can find those resources within, although they are more accessible to me as I nurture and practice a spiritual life.

lady of shallot · Sun May 15, 2011 6:53 pm

I have experienced great stress in my life. A result of this stress was the feeling that I needed to be constantly alert and although meditating was not anything I knew about then, I could not also have imagined being "free" to do so. Nor did it ever occur to me to pray.

I have also experienced anger, depression and confusion. I would have thought meditation was an exercise in futility. I did seek counseling. I never understand expressions like "spirit" "soul" I always feel totally integrated, not "separated" in any part. Aging has been very kind to me (well not my looks) as the stresses and strains of my earlier life are absent so my thoughts can be occupied with what ever I feel free to think about and I am rarely unhappy about anything. Let me add that I realize I will sicken and maybe not live in comfort before I check out completely, so I just like to enjoy these months or years as I can.

Murrill · Sun May 15, 2011 7:40 pm


	lady of shallot wrote: I would have thought meditation was an exercise in futility. I did seek counseling. I never understand expressions like "spirit" "soul" I always feel totally integrated, not "separated" in any part.

I can be prone to becoming...."frazzled," I guess. Meditation helps me to destress, to find my center and my balance. I also find that I age I am less concerned with things that once devastated me. I think of the brief few minutes I take several times a day as meditation, although I usually treat myself to 20-30 minutes at night. I have not been active in yoga for some time, but when I have it includes some meditative features. I enjoy your posts, BTW, and I liked your share about being integrated and comfortable with yourself.

Chris OConnor · Sun May 15, 2011 11:07 pm


	Quote: Why would one long for something that is unachievable?

You're falling out of an airplane and you realize you forgot your parachute. You long for a parachute, yet you understand that a parachute will not materialize out of thin air. Yet, oddly you still long for one.

Your wife and best friend dies of cancer in your arms. For the balance of your life you long for her in so many ways, yet you are abundantly aware that no matter how much you long for her she is gone forever.

Yes, people long for many things that are completely unachievable.

Forum rules

prayer Tweet This Topic

Who is online

Chat Room Always Open!