the fisher king

MadArchitect · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: the fisher king

Is this the proper forum in which to discuss mythology? Regardless...

I'm looking for some information on the medieval symbol/legend of the fisher king, and I thought I'd through the question your way. In particular, I'm looking for primary sources -- that is, occurences of the fisher king motif in actual medieval literature. But references to critical works would also be appreciated, as would any random information you happen to know off the top of your head.

If anyone's interested, the fisher king is a character associated with the Arthurian Grail cycle. In essence, he's a prince or king who finds himself wounded by one means or another (it varies from version to version), and is largely incapacitated but unable to die. The significance of the character has been explained in a number of ways, and the whole legend is fascinating in part because it's so enigmatic. In one version, the fisher king is a prince returning from knight errantry. He stumbles on an abandoned camp, the centerpiece of which is a salmon roasting on a spit. Overcome with hunger, the fisher king takes a bite of the salmon, but it's so hot that it wounds him, and he finds himself unable to escape the camp.

I have Robert Johnson's "The Fisher King and the Handless Maiden", but it's not really suitable for my purposes. (I tend to think that it's not really suitable for much, really.) And I also have most of the Grail cycle -- "Lancelot of the Lake", "The Quest for the Holy Grail", two or three versions of "The Death of Arthur" and a collection of Chretain de Troyes' Arthurian romances. Unfortunately, none of them are equipped with indices, so I can't look up particular references within the works. If someone can point me to occurences within those works, I'd be very grateful.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: the fisher king

I think this is the proper forum...but regardless...

Quote:
He stumbles on an abandoned camp, the centerpiece of which is a salmon roasting on a spit. Overcome with hunger, the fisher king takes a bite of the salmon, but it's so hot that it wounds him, and he finds himself unable to escape the camp.

Uh...the Fisher King sounds like a moron given this synopsis!

::18

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Chris OConnor · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: the fisher king

MadArchitect · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: the fisher king

Gee, thanks for the help.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: the fisher king

MadIs this the proper forum in which to discuss mythology?

Considering many religious folk would consider their particular religion to be true, and all others to be myth; I think Mythology has a right honored place at this table.

Likewise, Philosophers have employed Myth in multiple capacities in order to better illuminate their theories and insights: Plato, Nietzsche, and Camus come to mind.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: the fisher king

Sorry Mad...I was just being quippy. I have nothing to offer you in this matter.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

MadArchitect · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: the fisher king

No problem. I don't mind the joke. I just hope it doesn't derail the thread before it has a chance to get started.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: Re: the fisher king

I know Joseph Campbell has spent a good deal of his scholarship exploring the Fisher King and Wasteland themes in mythology. In particular, his fourth volume of the Masks of God series titled, Creative Mythology is where he gives it the most attention.

In Creative Mythology, Campbell traces the roots of the Fisher King and Wasteland stories across European and Occidental history; finding similar symbols, events, characters in Celtic, Greek, pre-Christian and New Testament mythic systems.

Of course, Campbell's dependency upon the primacy of the psychological lens of interpretation, Jungian specifically, allows him to find Fisher King and Wasteland motifs universally in world mythology. Thus, Campbell shows how these themes arise in North American Indian or Indian sub-continent mythic systems.

Campbell takes the pedagogic leap to argue for how the Wasteland takes modern shape and where the contemporary world searches for its Hero Knight to heal the wounded King of our day.

Are you interested in pursuing a similar exploration of our contemporary Wasteland? Who might be our Percival? And what has wounded our Fisher King and how to heal him?

MadArchitect · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: the fisher king

No, I'm more interested in the myth as it took expression in the specifically medieval context in which it arose. Thanks for the reference. I'll take a look at "Creative Mythology". I have "Occidental Mythology"; I was surprised that the Fisher King wasn't mentioned there.

Sara Michael · Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: the fisher king

Hello ... interesting topic. May I ask what prompted you to research the "Fisher King?"

The Fisher King intrigues me as well. One aspect his slashed thighs …. I find it interesting that often “Satan / Lucifer / Devil / Diablo” is often portrayed with a limp or gimp. Thighs are also associated to fertility rituals as well as spiritual trials (Garter belts, Thigh Shields). Grooms toss bridal garters. Women wear garter belts clipped at the thighs aka chastity belts. A priest’s vestments include a “thigh shield.” Perpetual struggle between spiritual / physical. Or perhaps man’s continuous struggle between civilized and animal instincts – gives rise to several interesting discussions.

(www.roca.org/OA/32/32f.htm) - Those priests honored to wear the thigh-shield and also the epigonation (in Russian-palitsa), then put these on with the prayer: Gird Thy sword upon Thy thigh, O Mighty one.. "(Ps. 443) And indeed, these originated from the "knee-protectors' suspended from the belt and worn on the thigh by soldiers under their swords. The thigh-shield represents the spiritual sword denoting the celebrant as a soldier of Christ. The epigonation also represents the word of God, that is, the spiritual sword (Eph. 6:17) used to fight against all the wiles of the enemy.

The Order of the Garter in Arthurian Legends stems back to Sir Gawain and his green belt, a symbol of his spiritual trials … another facet of the Fisher King. (www.cliffsnotes.com/Wiley...m-43.html)

Joseph Campbell is a favorite read of mine. You might also want to read his renditions of Arthurian Legends in Transformations of Myth Through Time and The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Both books address a number of characters who exhibit traits or are of the lineage of the Fisher King.

In addition, the University of Idaho has a site summarizing the Fisher King legacy: www.uidaho.edu/student_or...il/fisher/

If you are a Shakespeare fan, a number of groups have discussed his later plays and characters such as King Lear and Pericles as “fisher king” characters drawing distinct ties to the Welsh and Celtic myths – Sea God Llyr. Diverse debates between critics erupted regarding the Shakespeare Fisher King as symbol of “nature” or “man.” Leading critics Derek Traversi and G Wilson Knight argued:

Quote: “the reasons for Pericles' suffering were not as important as the play's archetypal patterns. Pericles was not, they suggested, a fully drawn character so much as a figure from one of the ancient "vegetation" myths described in James Frazer's The Golden Bough (1922), Carl Jung's Archetypes of the Collective Unconscious (1934), and Jessie Weston's From Ritual to Romance (1920) - the anthropological study that T. S. Eliot claimed as the source for The Waste Land (1922). These critics located Pericles in the same matrix as the Fisher King, a pagan fertility symbol who languishes in his barren winter kingdom until spring brings rain and new life to the earth. One such critic, Richard Wincor, argued in 1950 that it was misguided to search for modern psychology in Pericles, for the play's subject was "no longer the individual, but the entire picture of the seasons ... Shakespeare's protagonist is Supernature."

In addition have you researched the 12th century’s Joseph of Arimathea by Robert de Boron's (Borron or Baron, depending on which country)? This is one of the earlier works aligning medieval Christianity and Arthurian Legend. Joseph is referred to as the Fisher King through out this work. His work also correlates to Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales as well as early lore like Beowulf.

Lastly, another consideration would be Robert Johnson’s book, "He" which uses the medieval "fisher king" as a platform for timeless allegories that provides powerful insights into the complex nature of the male psyche. (An excellent parallel to Joseph Campbell's work as well as Jung.)

I realize my suggestions may be out of the norm … but for me, the most enthralling triggers are discovered on the road less traveled.

I should have apologized in advance for the long-winded reply. ;o)

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:20 am Post subject: Re: the fisher king

Quote:
I should have apologized in advance for the long-winded reply. ;o)

Your replying to Mad Architect, long-windedness is nothing to be sorry about!

::100

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper


	FORUMS	ABOUT	BOOKS	VIDEOS	ADVERTISE	LINKS	BLOGS	DONATE	CHAT	CONTACT