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Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

#92: Jan. - Feb. 2011 (Non-Fiction)
lady of shallot

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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Well I started an answer not realizing there was a second page on this topic and lost my answer. I was agreeing (I think) with Interbane about "gut instinct"

I had said that on the occasions where I felt I was having a "gut instinct" it was really the coming together of previously ingested bits of either aural or visual information.

I would like to go back and refer to Penelope's posts about left brained and right brained influences and also to the Mozart effect changing brain waves in children. I'm afraid to so so though because then maybe I will lose this.

I think Penelope you said that too much emphasis on one or the other side of the brain would create a "monstrous" individual? This seems a rather extreme thing to say and also one that is not under our control.

My husband is an artist so I would say he is (whichever side of the brain influences that) he is not so good at math. I pay the bills and know where things are filed. I always understand the murder mysteries. Now I definitely could study and practice and become a better artist than I am, but I will never be as good as my husband who himself is not as good as say Leonardo. I guess I don't understand why Penelope you say that dominance of one side of the brain is not preferred. That we should try to "balance" the two sides. Why?

Why if we are both femaie do you consider yourself "intuitive" and I do not consider myself so? What do you mean by patterns? Stories we tell ourselves?

I did not read the text of Sam Harris article but it is interesting to consider the use of the word atheist unnecessary. Which of course it is, except as a quick way of explaining one's position vis a vis "the deity"
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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lady of shallot:

Why if we are both femaie do you consider yourself "intuitive" and I do not consider myself so? What do you mean by patterns? Stories we tell ourselves?
The patterns reference, is from something that Interbane said to me over a year ago and I was very impressed with the analogy. He said, we make patterns and try to make the chaos of life comprehensible to ourselves - and, I think he suggested that I shouldn't keep trying to make everything make sense, and just accept the World/Life the way it is, unfair and chaotic. Since then I have caught myself trying to make patterns, make the pieces fit....you know. The bit about telling stories, is a reference to the human race's history of telling itself stories, about how the World began - like The Garden of Eden, and the flood etc. We feel powerless and confused, so we have always told ourselves stories to try to make sense of it. This before we made such strides in science and begin to understand a little more.

I really didn't mean to imply that I thought that people who had a more dominant side to their brain were monstrous. I just think that people who only concentrate on the wild, impulsive, imaginative side and don't try to develop the rational, scientific and reasoning side - are like the Taliban - just letting their imaginings take over and not reasoning......(Actually, I think most of the poor souls are just too afraid to appear to think for themselves and disobey).

And I think that the relier scompletely on the rational side, try to create a master race, and destroy all those children born born with what they might consider a defect.....to strengthen the gene pool.....but might not have the imagination to realise what compassionless monsters they would be becoming.

I was wrong......It was just me letting my theories run away with me - as is my wont. I'm always trying to solve the puzzle.....but fortunately, I have a well-developed sense of humour and I am aware of my own ridiculousness.

I keep losing my posts - so I'll post this, then go back and see if I've missed any important points.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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WRT - Intuition. Now that it is possible to look at brain activity on a computer, we can see that a woman, generally speaking, uses the artistic side of her brain more that a male, generally speaking. I call it the intuitive side because it is the side where to imagination comes from. Not saying we are all Psychic.

Men, use the rational side, more, and again, generally speaking. I did wonder whether that was why many gifted poets and authors of fiction, have been gay. But best not go there!!!

Have you read the book 'Why Women can't Read Maps and Men Don't Listen'? It is a really amusing book but also explains a lot, using computer print outs of brain activity and such.

It is not just theory....there is proof that a female brain works differently to a male brain.

It is very good for me on BT - as they won't let me go off on one.....(as my husband calls it). I just don't know whether I am good for them though. :(
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Penelope wrote:I shouldn't keep trying to make everything make sense, and just accept the World/Life the way it is, unfair and chaotic.
It's okay to try and make sense of things, but you need to realize that in the process, you're necessarily going to have a compressed view of the way things really are. Some information will be lost. Your understanding may be roughly truthful, but it will never be absolutely truthful. Be content to accept a modicum of doubt, even in the things you're most certain of. But don't let the doubt destroy your confidence. If you accept the fact that you could be wrong, then you are more intellectually honest and are more likely to be correct. Let that fuel your confidence.
I guess I don't understand why Penelope you say that dominance of one side of the brain is not preferred. That we should try to "balance" the two sides. Why?
This is one of those cases where I wouldn't be so quick to categorize. There are likely more ways of classifying mental types than 'rational' versus 'artistic'. Quite a few other factors which are just as important yet overlooked. I know many people who are both rational, good at math, and artistic. I also know people who are neither, but have such a high emotional IQ that they are telepathic. Or who are good at none of the above, yet are great athletes.

Perhaps the problem is that when the rational mind isn't held in check by emotion, some immoral actions sometimes manifest. Such a person may not necessarily be emotionless, but they have such powerful beliefs that emotions can't hold them in check. Having a modicum of doubt in all your beliefs is the kryptonite to the inflexible arrogance we often see in people. Inflexible arrogance, especially in an intelligent person, is the worst of all attributes.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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One thing on a forum such as this, is we should actually consider the age of the poster (as much as possible) Some qualities, prominent in our early twenties say, are less so in our 70's! You are of course the same person. Just a moderated version of.

There is a beautiful line in Love in the Time of Cholera, which is "they were safe on the other shore" One does find oneself safe on that other shore quite often in older age.

Penelope I don't know that book but I have a friend whose husband was reading "men are from Mars and woman are from Venus" on the beach when a man walked by and said, "your wife made you read that didn't she?" Anyway I can definitely read maps but do agree that men do not listen! But then they say that is because we talk too much.

I must be rather simple minded as many things do not bother me at all, nor do I ever think of them. Beliefs in the thoughts of others, condemnations from others etc. Maybe because all of my adult life I have lived far from family and created my own life without much influence from others/

Penelope said: "I just think that people who only concentrate on the wild, impulsive, imaginative side" based just on this statement, I would think such a person had some serious issues.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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lady of shallot:

One thing on a forum such as this, is we should actually consider the age of the poster (as much as possible) Some qualities, prominent in our early twenties say, are less so in our 70's! You are of course the same person. Just a moderated version of.
I'm 65, but I can honestly say that I have always, since childhood, been interested in spiritual matters. Sounds awful I know. I have become much more interest in scientific matters since reaching my sixties and especially since accessing this website. I have definitely lost my conventional faith in Christianity......which is backside foremost as most people, I think, become more concerned about the state of their souls, the closer to the grave.

No, I definitely rationalise more.....because, on BT, if you say....'I just had this feeling......' you get jumped on. Quite rightly......and Richard Dawkins gives some great warnings about not listening to people who just have revelations....but no scientific backup or research into their theories.

Both my husband and myself (now I sound like the Queen), feel more and more that the World has changed so much....we do feel as though it is not 'our' world anymore. Films and modern books seem incomprehensible to us because we can't understand the characters' motivations.....the cult of the celebrity....the cruelty of modern humour. That's enough. But whereas OH likes to go to the theatre and see Shakespeare and costume drama on TV, and watches comedy shows from the past.....I do like to keep up with technology to the best of my ability....which is odd, because he is the scientist.....

Now that I've said all this folks......I give you permission to keep me up to date, and do tell me if I begin to sound like a reactionary old fart.

However, I can read maps because my husband has insisted I do it when we go on our travels through Europe. But, it is true that I often turn the map upside down so that I am following it in the direction we are travelling. I don't have good, spacial awareness and definitely cannot visualise what is happening when I park the car - when I turn the steering wheel, I can't visualise what is happening to the wheels...I just park parrot fashion, so to speak. This is a typically female brain disfunction, although like you, my daughter has no trouble in this area.

Men don't listen, because they cannot do two things at once, as a woman can (because of how her brain works). We can knit, read and watch TV all at the same time. Most men, you will notice, need to switch off the TV or turn down the sound, before the answer the telephone. A woman hardly ever does this. If a man is reading a book, he will not hear you asking him a question, so we think he isn't listening, when in fact, he is just not hearing, because he can only do one thing at once. This is generalising, of course, but if you look at the brain activity patterns......this tendency, and it is only a tendency because of course there are variations, never-the-less, it an be seen quite clearly. Evidence, see!!

In the Men are from Mars book, there is only annecdotal evidence.

See, Richard Dawkins and the BT posters......I am taking your lessons on board.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Anyway I can definitely read maps but do agree that men do not listen! But then they say that is because we talk too much.
I can tell you the truth that most men won't. It's that so much of what a woman says, we don't care about. I know, that's a generalization, but many of my male friends agree. So much of it is trivial banter that I find myself having to try very hard to pay attention. That may sound callous or rude or impolite or... whatever negative thing you want to call it. But it is what it is. I don't know why I don't care about many of the things my woman talks about. At the same time, I've noticed something very interesting. Whenever she talks about the same things around other women, they are all interested! They actually care about such trivial banter! Perhaps the root cause here is that women are wired to care about the nuances in relationships far removed from their own.

Whenever the topic is something that grabs my interest, I am an excellent listener. But I can't go inside my own head and rewire my neurons to change my interests. There are things that simply don't matter to me.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Interbane:

My husband criticises the books I read...He says, 'Women always want to read about 'feelings''.....and Francois Sagan does that so well!!

But, Yes, you are right....our main concern is about relationships...

You know, my husband Norman, makes all the big decisions, like what to do about the World situation, Global warming...., Economic Policy....

I make all the little decisions....like what we eat, what colour scheme the parlour should have.......the cushions. the sofas.....

The older I get, the more interested I become in sofas...chairs, cushions..... :wink:
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Interbane said "I can tell you the truth that most men won't. It's that so much of what a woman says, we don't care about."

Oh Interbane we know that! I like to tell my husband my dreams and as we are such good friends now after 50 yrs of marriage, he listens, but only tolerantly! I also don't care about the intricacies of biking and bike parts and makes and losing the little nuts when you are repairing a bike etc etc etc.

What gives me a laugh though is the great focus and attention a swim suit model while merit when she appears on t.v. Don't you guys realize her conversation would probably be even less interesting than your wives? Guess it doesn't matter, you are not listening to her.

Yesterday Penelope posted about "patterns" in her thinking and today I read an article in the paper written by . . . hm m m he was connected with a university (Harvard?) addressing the same topic esp in reference to the killings in Tucson. But also the bird deaths, fish deaths etc. He said such things are random (nothing is actually random) and that there is no way to forestall such occurrences by say gun laws or other such. He claimed that 1% of the population is seriously mentally ill and 25% have a diagnosable mental condition?!?! Basically I agree with his conclusions but don't agree that all of us try to see a pattern in an occurrence like what happened in Tucson. I do not see nor feel the need to see a "pattern"
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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lady of shallott wrote:

He said such things are random (nothing is actually random) and that there is no way to forestall such occurrences by say gun laws or other such. He claimed that 1% of the population is seriously mentally ill and 25% have a diagnosable mental condition?!?! Basically I agree with his conclusions but don't agree that all of us try to see a pattern in an occurrence like what happened in Tucson. I do not see nor feel the need to see a "pattern"
I wasn't meaning that sort of pattern of occurences....and I don't think Interbane was either. The patterns I meant were - looking for a sense of direction, a purpose for the suffering in human existence.....so that the plight of people in third world countries, doesn't seem so futile.

The right to bare arms is something else again.....when a person certified with a mental health problem can just walk into a store and buy a gun.....it seems as though something is wrong to me. When you have to queue for hours and fill in loads of forms and take tests to get a driving licence....but you can just go and buy a gun.....doesn't seem to make sense. Sorry!!

But if 25% of the population have mental health problems....shouldn't the ability to buy guns be curtailed? Well, this is from an outsider looking in.....what do I know!!

I thought you might be interested to see this from our National Newspaper in the UK this week:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ja ... e-loughner
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
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