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Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

#92: Jan. - Feb. 2011 (Non-Fiction)
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Penelope

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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Johnson wrote:

With a proper appreciation for the power of evidence and reason, religion sorts itself out.
No, it doesn't sort itself out. I have appreciation for the power of evidence and reason but we are not all about evidence and reason.
johnson wrote:

It really is not religion i have a problem with, as that is just the expression of flaccid thought processes. It is the underlying state of magical thinking that has to be addressed.
By accusing those of us who have respect for 'gut instinct' and 'intuitive, non-thinking processes' of flaccid thought - you are NOT addressing the underlying state of magical thinking.

I agree with you, it does urgently need to be addressed, bearing in mind the state of the world's religions/politics today, as outlined by Sam Harris - but refusing to allow people to explore the inexplicable part of us is to diminish us as human beings.

Anyway, there are no flaccid thought processes in Buddhism - but it is a philosophy which helps us to explore and come to terms with that part of ourselves which causes so much trouble.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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By accusing those of us who have respect for 'gut instinct' and 'intuitive, non-thinking processes' of flaccid thought - you are NOT addressing the underlying state of magical thinking.
I don't think there is any such path to the truth that doesn't involve thinking of some sort. What is gut instinct, really? Is it instinct that has evolved within us to help us survive in certain situations? Or is it instinct that taps into a magical alternate reality to help us arrive at the truth?

Appeals to 'instinct' or 'intuition' as a path to arriving at truthful conclusions are last ditch efforts to hold on to treasured beliefs.

Can you explain something you believe in for which there is no reason, but you believe it based on your 'gut instinct'? I can almost guarantee that when such beliefs are further analyzed, you can separate the wheat from the chaff, and find that some are in fact supported by reasons. The ones that aren't are false, or at least are irrationally believed.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Interbane wrote:

Can you explain something you believe in for which there is no reason, but you believe it based on your 'gut instinct'?
I believe in 'The Mozart Effect'. That playing Mozart to little children affects their brain waves, and makes them cleverer, because the sound waves alter the vibration of the neurons in their brans. I don't know why, but I believe it.

I believe Mozart was a genius who composed music by intuition - as well as education of course, but if it was possible to compose such music 'just' by education and science and rationality - well, then all composers would be Mozarts - which they evidently are not.

There is a very close affinity between Music and Mathematics. They call the works of Bach, musical mathematics. But what is that extra - emotion - resonance, genius - that Mozart had that has never been matched.

To call it 'Gut Instinct' is to demean it.....but it was something I believe in because there is the evidence of his music.....but I cannot begin to explain it.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Is it not true that we have a mathematical/rational/scientific side to our brains and an artistic/intuitive/instinctive side?

This is provable now that we have electro-encephalographs which measure our brain activity and produce computer diagrams to illustrate it.

This is why I keep banging on about the need to balance the two. If we accept only the rational side, we become monstrous. If we pander only to the artistic side.....we can become monsters. Equally hateful either way.

We can balance both sides of our brains, because this is what we do when we can see the 3D image in those 'magic eye' pictures, composed of dots.

Am I being rational enough for you?
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Penelope wrote: I believe in 'The Mozart Effect'. That playing Mozart to little children affects their brain waves, and makes them cleverer, because the sound waves alter the vibration of the neurons in their brans. I don't know why, but I believe it.
But don't you think this claim is amenable to evidence? One study may not be enough, but either it's true or it's not.

And if it's not true, you still may wish to play Mozart for your children. And being rational does not mean you can't appreciate art for it's own sake.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Dexter wrote:

But don't you think this claim is amenable to evidence? One study may not be enough, but either it's true or it's not.

And if it's not true, you still may wish to play Mozart for your children. And being rational does not mean you can't appreciate art for it's own sake.
It is not really about one study. There is a book called 'The Mozart Effect' and I found it interesting and plausible.

But the fact of Mozart himself, being such a genius, when music is such a mathematical phenomenon - is my evidence for 'something extra' in humanity.

I use Mozart as an example, rather than Leonardo Da Vinci, because - music is so scientific, as it were.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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I remember seeing (or reading, can't remember which) an interview with the late poet James Dickey. He had begun to delve into subjects that were a bit fantastical and you could say came from the less rational parts of his mind. Some readers and critics had complained about this direction, telling him, "Oh come off it." He replied to them, "I don't want to come off it; I want to go with it." So it seems to me that not just poets but others as well--religious people and artists, for instance--make this choice of "going with it." I have objections to this in particular instances, but it does appear to offer a rewarding way of experiencing life.

"Rational" has come to mean something so restricted that it can't possibly be sufficient for human being. I would argue that, once," rational" or "reason" was more inclusive of our emotional range, more equivalent to the full scope of our perceptions. Sometimes, with the insistence on rationality, I get the feeling that the kind of perception or knowing typically reflected in poetry is excluded. The same could apply to all of art, I suppose, but in my mind especially to poetry.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Oh, thankyou DWill. It is just that I have this...insight, sort of feeling...

Which won't do will it? I need to rationalise all of my reasons!!!

Right, well, when I am up at the pub....with an empty glass in front of me, as all too often happens....

If I ping, flick my finger on the side of the glass...that causes a resonance...which vibrates and resonates...with all of the other glasses behind the bar.....

If I listen to conversations, evesdrop...that same kind of resonance occurs.

We are vibrations....we are all made of vibrations!! (Help me here...TORY BOY..Robert Tulip....you know what I'm getting at....even though we disagree terminally, on a political level)....

I was watching a Science TV Programme last night... it was about Temperature...it said, there was no such thing as heat...it was about particles vibrating - faster....or more slowly....

But wait....we can't achieve absolute zero.....!!!!

Come on you Scientific Bods.......what is all this about vibrations?

I think it is a way of visualising morphic resonance.....when...maybe...we all begin to start questioning the status quo...at the same time....

Robert Tulip....over to you.
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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I believe in 'The Mozart Effect'. That playing Mozart to little children affects their brain waves, and makes them cleverer, because the sound waves alter the vibration of the neurons in their brans. I don't know why, but I believe it.
Then you believe it even though experiments show it has no lasting effect. Not to say I didn't play Mozart for my son...

You seem to think of our cognitive functions differently. The small fraction of our reasoning that we focus on, the 'conscience', is just that, a small fraction. We're thinking in the background without realizing it. I refer to this background thinking no differently. You may call it instinct, or not. There are also many predispositions we have as residue from our evolutionary heritage. Biases and lusts and loves. I see these as rational as well! I understand that you may see them as altogether different. But there is a 'free-floating' rationale in love of our children, or desire of a mate, or tendency to believe false patterns. This free-floating rationale ties in to game theory, and has helped the human race arrive at today.

Even music may have such a free-floating rationale, where it served a social adhesion purpose in ritual, or perhaps not. I enjoy music and think it's a wonder of life. But to me, understanding something and also enjoying the majesty of it are not mutually exclusive. To some people, that seems to be the case. Where they say "I am only a big flesh-bag of chemical reactions". Such reductionism is what you need to avoid. Enjoy the beauty of life, but don't view with disdain the things you have come to understand.

I do not think there is some "something extra" to humanity that is beyond understanding. To me, that's robbery. To you, perhaps it serves as an anchor to keep the mystery and beauty of the world in place. But really, there is enough that even though we understand it, it is still beautiful and mysterious. I understand what Pi is, but the next number in the sequence is always a mystery to me. I understand my son, but his next action is always a mystery to me(at least at this age).
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Re: Harris speech (transcript) on atheism

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Thankyou Interbane, I am not used to people taking me seriously, at face value that is.

I think about Shakespeare saying 'Music has the power to soothe the savage breast'.....now why? What is it about sound? How can sound, even a drum beat...affect our feelings?

But it certainly does....to good, or deleterious effect.

Because, music causes sound waves....vibrations....which resonate within us.
Interbane wrote:

You seem to think of our cognitive functions differently.
I certainly seem to perceive them differently.....It is how we picture the World...the stories we tell ourselves....the patterns we make.

Are you saying, Interbane, that you don't make patterns, to try to make sense of life?

Maybe it is part oif being female and being more intuitive....or drawn to the intuitive.....but, I am trying to be more rational and scientific. Sometimes my husband of 45 years... is gobsmacked. And that makes me laugh!!
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
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