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Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior

#88: Sept. - Oct. 2010 (Non-Fiction)
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DWill

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Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior

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stahwre,
What you are now pointing out about Wright's understanding or interpretation of the Bible takes me back to when I encouraged you to take part in the discussion. I said that Wright isn't a Bible scholar (and he surely wouldn't say he is), and so having somebody who might be well able to advise whether his judgments about it are sound, could be helpful. That is the function you're now doing, in a sense. But either because our discussion is too polarized, or because you want to torpedo him by citing details, it's not working very well. I suggest that if you were to frame your observations not as "gotchyas!" but as relative to his thesis in the book, we'd be getting somewhere. But of course you'd have to care about his larger aim in the book, which I think is the courtesy we owe any author. Is Wright's contention that the NT clearly shows Jesus evolving from the early to the later Gospels not supported by the text in some instances? That would be a constructive approach. So far, I think you have been trying to impugn Wright's overall credibility as an author by pointing out errors he makes regarding the Bible. This isn't how books are evaluated, though, by critics, who will first address how well the writer gets across his primary themes, and then will cite errors of fact and indicate to what degree these affect the validity of his conclusions. Errors are errors, whether they concern the Bible or anything else, and they need to be put in perspective.
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stahrwe

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Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior

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DWill wrote:stahwre,
What you are now pointing out about Wright's understanding or interpretation of the Bible takes me back to when I encouraged you to take part in the discussion. I said that Wright isn't a Bible scholar (and he surely wouldn't say he is), and so having somebody who might be well able to advise whether his judgments about it are sound, could be helpful. That is the function you're now doing, in a sense. But either because our discussion is too polarized, or because you want to torpedo him by citing details, it's not working very well. I suggest that if you were to frame your observations not as "gotchyas!" but as relative to his thesis in the book, we'd be getting somewhere. But of course you'd have to care about his larger aim in the book, which I think is the courtesy we owe any author. Is Wright's contention that the NT clearly shows Jesus evolving from the early to the later Gospels not supported by the text in some instances? That would be a constructive approach. So far, I think you have been trying to impugn Wright's overall credibility as an author by pointing out errors he makes regarding the Bible. This isn't how books are evaluated, though, by critics, who will first address how well the writer gets across his primary themes, and then will cite errors of fact and indicate to what degree these affect the validity of his conclusions. Errors are errors, whether they concern the Bible or anything else, and they need to be put in perspective.
I am no more of a Bible scholar than Wright. I have had only 1 formal class on the Bible. It was, An Introduction to the New Testament. But I have read the Bible. I have emphasized that it is ill advised to criticize the Bible unless you have read it and I believe that Wright falls victim to that very issue. I don't think he has read even the parts pertinent to his book. However, even your caveat that Wright is not a Bible scholar is not an excuse to be so far off as the smart thing to do with a book like TEoG is to let some people who are Bible scholars review the manuscript prior to publication in order to avoid gaffs. It seems that Wright bypassed that step.

As for gotchas or torpedoing the book, I should not be able to do that. A well constructed book would anticipate areas of disagreement and address them. These are not trivial issues, like the population of the ancient middle-east, Wright is attacking the very heart of Christianity and who Jeus claimed to be. But he doesn't have his facts right in major areas. Areas which are easily checked. If he is wrong about those, why does he deserve the benefit of the doubt about others and his theory in general.

The Abrahamic monotheistic religions did indeed emerged from polytheism but it was a separation not an evolution and the story is recounted in Genesis. Of course that doesn't fill or sell a book.

BTW, I have been accused of 'cherry picking' and I admit to it. I have picked a few of the errors to cite (the really big ones) and left the others in the orchard of the errors in TEoG.

If you would like to discuss the 'apparent' evolution of Jesus from the 'early' gospel to the later, why not read and discuss the Gospels? I believe you will find that Wright is wrong.
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Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior

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stahrwe wrote:. . . .
BTW, I have been accused of 'cherry picking' and I admit to it. I have picked a few of the errors to cite (the really big ones) and left the others in the orchard of the errors in TEoG.

If you would like to discuss the 'apparent' evolution of Jesus from the 'early' gospel to the later, why not read and discuss the Gospels? I believe you will find that Wright is wrong.
Wrong about what? Make an argument.

Wright argues that we tend to find a scriptural basis for intolerance or belligerence when we are in zero-sum relationships with other people, but when they see the relationship as non-zero-sum we are more likely to find the tolerant and understanding side of their scriptures. Is that where Wright is wrong? Or do you disagree with Wright's argument that our concept of God has changed over time? That religion has evolved from polytheism to monotheism?
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Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior

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stahrwe wrote:
The Abrahamic monotheistic religions did indeed emerged from polytheism but it was a separation not an evolution and the story is recounted in Genesis. Of course that doesn't fill or sell a book.
If it was a separation, where did polytheism go? And aren't there vestiges of polytheism in Christianity? Angels, Satan, Jesus, etc.
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Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior

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geo wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
The Abrahamic monotheistic religions did indeed emerged from polytheism but it was a separation not an evolution and the story is recounted in Genesis. Of course that doesn't fill or sell a book.
If it was a separation, where did polytheism go? And aren't there vestiges of polytheism in Christianity? Angels, Satan, Jesus, etc.
No.
Jesus is part of the Trinity
Satan was an arch angel. He and the other angels were created by God. They are not gods, and are NOT to be worshipped in any way shape or form.
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Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior

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stahrwe wrote:
geo wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
The Abrahamic monotheistic religions did indeed emerged from polytheism but it was a separation not an evolution and the story is recounted in Genesis. Of course that doesn't fill or sell a book.
If it was a separation, where did polytheism go? And aren't there vestiges of polytheism in Christianity? Angels, Satan, Jesus, etc.
No.
Jesus is part of the Trinity
Satan was an arch angel. He and the other angels were created by God. They are not gods, and are NOT to be worshipped in any way shape or form.
By the way, that's not any kind of argument. Just saying something doesn't make it true.

If you're going to say Wright is wrong, you need to make an argument yourself and back it up with evidence. Saying Wright got such and such wrong in the Bible is not very conducive to rational discourse. You dismiss Wright's larger theories based on little details that depend largely on your own interpretation. And we all know the Bible can be interpreted any number of ways. I previously cited the Malleus Maleficarum which shows how scripture was twisted to justify the persecution of witches.

I would argue that demons, Satan, angels, etc. are minor gods. You say they are not to be worshipped, but they are supernatural beings nonetheless, much like the minor gods of the Greek pantheon. As for saying Jesus being part of the Trinity, that's just semantic trickery. The Trinity consists of three beings, all gods. Saying they are part of a trinity doesn't change that basic fact.
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stahrwe

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Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior

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geo wrote:
stahrwe wrote:
The Abrahamic monotheistic religions did indeed emerged from polytheism but it was a separation not an evolution and the story is recounted in Genesis. Of course that doesn't fill or sell a book.
If it was a separation, where did polytheism go? And aren't there vestiges of polytheism in Christianity? Angels, Satan, Jesus, etc.
No.
Jesus is part of the Trinity
Satan was an arch angel. He and the other angels were created by God. They are not gods, and are NOT to be worshipped in any way shape or form.[/quote]
Geo wrote:By the way, that's not any kind of argument. Just saying something doesn't make it true.
If you would like to go through the nuts and bolts of it I would be more than happy to demonstrate the correctness of what I said.
Geo wrote:If you're going to say Wright is wrong, you need to make an argument yourself and back it up with evidence. Saying Wright got such and such wrong in the Bible is not very conducive to rational discourse. You dismiss Wright's larger theories based on little details that depend largely on your own interpretation. And we all know the Bible can be interpreted any number of ways. I previously cited the Malleus Maleficarum which shows how scripture was twisted to justify the persecution of witches.
This is absolutely ridiculous. In discussing Wright's book, I do not have to provide an alternative although I have done so. Your recourse to the Malleus Maleficarum is a typical attempt to introduce a rabbit. If you wish to chase that one, start a new thread.
Geo wrote:I would argue that demons, Satan, angels, etc. are minor gods. You say they are not to be worshipped, but they are supernatural beings nonetheless, much like the minor gods of the Greek pantheon. As for saying Jesus being part of the Trinity, that's just semantic trickery. The Trinity consists of three beings, all gods. Saying they are part of a trinity doesn't change that basic fact.
who and what angels are: God's angels are described as:
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? (Heb 1:14)

All of the angels were created by Jesus:
For by him [Jesus] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (Col 1:16 )

The Lord Jesus created all of the angels. This even includes Michael the archangel, which some cults wrongly think is Jesus!
.
God's angels worship Jesus:
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him [Jesus]." (Heb 1:6)

God's angels obey Him:
Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. (Psa. 103:20)

God's angels praise Him:
Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his heavenly hosts. (Psa. 148:2)

God's angels refuse to receive worship:
Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God." At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:9,10)

And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!" (Rev. 22:8,9).


Angels will be judged by Christians:
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! (1 Cor 6:3)

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/angels.htm
I also suggest that we start a discussion of the Trinity. It doesn't belong here.
There are no such things as minor gods.
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Sum n = -1/12
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Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior

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No.
Jesus is part of the Trinity
Satan was an arch angel. He and the other angels were created by God. They are not gods, and are NOT to be worshipped in any way shape or form.
Ahahah! Argumentum Dogmaticus!

There is nothing logical or rational here, just words repeated from text. Use your own thoughts Starhwe.
There are no such things as minor gods.
Nice claim, prove it.
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Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior

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geo wrote:
Wright argues that we tend to find a scriptural basis for intolerance or belligerence when we are in zero-sum relationships with other people, but when they see the relationship as non-zero-sum we are more likely to find the tolerant and understanding side of their scriptures. Is that where Wright is wrong? Or do you disagree with Wright's argument that our concept of God has changed over time? That religion has evolved from polytheism to monotheism?
Stahrwe, you still haven't responded to this. I have summarized some of Wright's major ideas. Are any of them wrong? All of them? Why?
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stahrwe

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Re: Ch. 13 - How Jesus Became Savior

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Interbane wrote:
stahrwe wrote:]No.
Jesus is part of the Trinity
Satan was an arch angel. He and the other angels were created by God. They are not gods, and are NOT to be worshipped in any way shape or form.
interbane wrote:Ahahah! Argumentum Dogmaticus!

There is nothing logical or rational here, just words repeated from text. Use your own thoughts Starhwe.
I don't know a starhwe.
I have sufficiently addressed this issue for the scope of this thread. We are intruding on DWill's Chapter 13. If you want to discuss this further, start a new thread.
There are no such things as minor gods.
interbane wrote:Nice claim, prove it.
[/quote]


You can't prove something does not exist. A logic giant such are yourself should know that.
n=Infinity
Sum n = -1/12
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