You are browsing the forum as a guest. Please log in or register to access additional features.
Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ABOUT BOOKS VIDEOS TRANSCRIPTS LINKS BLOGS DONATE CONTACT  

     Log in   Register 


BookTalk.org News
• If you are having trouble with logging into your account or making posts please know that we are working to resolve this issue. Please delete your temporary Internet files and cookies (at least those for our site) and stay tuned to see if that resolves the issue. If not our web designer believes he can find the code that is causing the issue.

Links & Resources

Community Rules & Tips
For Authors & Publishers
Link to our old forum
Our Amazon.com Statistics
Book Suggestions
Donations to BookTalk.org
BookTalk Forum Statistics
Games 170 FREE Games


Featured Videos

Robert Burton
"On Being Certain"


Robert Burton - On Being Certain

More Videos


Author Interviews

  

Featured Member Blogs

Ophelia's Blog
Lawrenceindestin's Blog
Penelope's Blog
Frank 013's Blog

- All Member Blogs
- Blog News


Chat Room

Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room
Enter Chat Room

Show us where you live!
BookTalk.org Member Map

Donate & Support BookTalk.org

Please support our free community by making a credit card donation through our secure PayPal account. We appreciate and depend on the generosity of our members. Thank you!

See who supports us


Display Pagerank


Oct. 2000 - Whence Natural Rights? - A Dialogue


 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BookTalk.org Forum Index -> Belief, Religion & Philosophy
Author Message
Chris OConnor Chris OConnor has been starred
Rhodes Scholar
BookTalk.org Owner

Avatar



Joined: 20 Oct 2000

Posts: 6848
Gender: Male
Location: Florida
us.gif



PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:57 pm    Post subject: Oct. 2000 - Whence Natural Rights? - A Dialogue Reply with quote
This forum is for reading and discussing Massimo Pigliucci's Rationally Speaking article entitled Whence Natural Rights? - A Dialogue.

Quote:
N. 3, October 2000

Whence Natural Rights? - A Dialogue


HYPATIA: Hello, Simplicia, where are you going in such a hurry so early in the morning?
SIMPLICIA: Hello, my friend! I am to join a demonstration in favor of our fundamental rights we hold as human beings.

H: Oh, and what rights could anybody possibly have that are so indisputable?

S: Surely you are jesting. Have you not heard of the Declaration of Independence? Do you not recall that “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness?”

H: I also recall that the man who uttered those words made plenty of exceptions for women and men of colors other than his own when it was most convenient for him.

S: Fair enough, but the purity of the principle is more important than the faulty actuation of the same.

H: Let me concede that for a moment. Nevertheless, just because somebody said it, or because it appeals to our sense of poetry, it does not follow that it is true. What arguments can you possibly adduce for the existence of natural rights?

S: As I mentioned a minute ago, are they not self-evident?

H: Not to me, they are not. On the contrary, it is self-evident that people have to struggle everywhere to even approach what you consider obvious. Would it not be the case that if rights were universal and incontestable facts of life, few if any human beings would contest them, in principle, if not in practice? Doesn’t everybody agree on the fact that people have to feed themselves in order to survive? That is because it indeed is a fact of life.

S: Ah, my dear Hypatia, but you know very well of people who allow others to starve, either through inaction or by pernicious withdrawal of the necessary goods.

H: True enough, Simplicia, but not even those people would deny the fact that people have to eat. They will only deny that it is their right to do so, if you see the difference.

S: I do indeed. So, you are saying that universal rights cannot be justified by appeal to agreement among human beings, because such agreement is lacking.

H: My point exactly.

S: But what about other sources of natural rights? Is it not conceivable that they could come from things other than human societies? After all, humans did not invent the necessity of food; it is a thing that comes from nature herself.

H: That is indeed a possibility. However, it seems logical that if one wants to derive rights from nature one should dispassionately observe what happens in nature and then use such observations as guidance to establish an independent foundation for rights, is it not so?

S: That does seem like the logical course of action.

H: And yet, if we were to do so in practice, we would probably come up with a set of principles that do not reflect at all the kinds of rights you seem to have in mind!

S: How so, Hypatia?

H: Because if one looks at nature one can see that animals and plants are certainly not created equal. On the contrary, it is precisely their differences that make it possible for natural selection to shape the face of the organic world, as Mr. Darwin has shown long ago. The negation of the so-called right to life is at the very basis of the struggle for existence that makes evolution possible; as for liberty, it is guaranteed only insofar one animal can defend it against intrusion from competitors or predators; and happiness is too vague of a word to even consider as the proper object of a serious philosophical discussion.

S: Shall I then conclude that you subscribe to the simple notion that nature is red in tooth and claws or that, as Mr. Hobbes put it, life in nature is “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short?”

H: I am much too much of an optimist to agree to that, my dear Simplicia. However, I would conclude from even a cursory observation of nature that she is neither moral nor immoral, neither good nor bad, but simply is. I believe it was David Hume who warned against the logical jump from what is to what ought to be, and it seems to me that therefore one cannot defend natural rights by appealing to nature; a rather uncomfortable situation for the promoters of such rights.

S: Even if I grant you that neither humans nor nature can be the sources of universal rights, most people would not be faced in the least by these difficulties, and would simply retort that there are higher authorities than both.

H: Ah, you mean some gods or goddesses!

S: Precisely: wouldn’t a divinity be the ultimate source and guarantor of universal rights?

H: It surely would, if not for any other reason than such divinity would presumably have the power to impose her will on us mere mortals.

S: There, then, do I see your skepticism about the possibility of natural rights beginning to wane?

H: No so fast, my dear friend. Your latest answer to our conundrum begs the question in two ways: how do you know there is such a divinity and, even if we should accept her existence as a matter of hypothesis, how do you know what kinds of rights does she endorse?

S: My dear Hypatia, you know very well that such a line of inquiry would bring us far into an altogether new direction of conversation, and that would definitely mean that I would be late to my protest march.

H: Indeed it would. But it is no matter to brush aside. You might agree at least to the observation that there are many people who have spent a great deal of time thinking about the existence of god and the nature of god’s will, without reaching even a minimal form of agreement. Furthermore, you know that many cogent doubts have been raised and objections construed against all the major arguments in favor of the existence of a deity.

S: Alas, this is all very true.

H: Then you cannot rest your defense of natural rights on the assumption of the existence of a god, because that would be the substitution of one mystery with an even greater mystery.

S: But, Hypatia, surely you see that by rejecting all possible sources of universal rights you are forced in the position that anything goes and that we have no rational motive to fight for anything that is dear to us.

H: Not at all. You seem to assume, Simplicia, that there are only two options: either rights are universal, or they don’t exist.

S: Is there a compromise somewhere that I have missed?

H: Most definitely! Let me explain my position with an example. I know you love the work of the painter Picasso. Surely you will agree that a painting by him cannot last forever, no matter how carefully preserved.

S: Yes, but I don’t see where you could possibly be going with this.

H: Even though you know that one day the painting will be gone forever, you still love to look at it now, to go to the museum every time you can, and even to contribute to its preservation by donating funds to the museum.

S: Yes, and…?

H: Well, Simplicia, is not this an example of something that is not universal, and yet is very precious? If you were to apply your nihilism to art, you wouldn’t care a bit about what happens to Picasso’s work for the simple reason that it is not a universal thing, it won’t last forever.

S: So you are saying that even though there may be no guarantor of universal rights, we are nevertheless justified in defending and caring for them with all our energies because they matter to us!

H: Precisely. It matters not that you cannot justify, for example, your right to freedom by universal laws. Freedom is still something that most human beings want, and we are bound to fight for a society that grants such right simply because we think it is a better society than any other alternative.

S: Thanks, Hypatia. I am not sure that I agree with all your points, but this conversation did throw some interesting light on what I am doing and why. I have to run to the demonstration, now!

H: Until the next time, then, my friend.


"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."  -- Leonardo da Vinci

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BookTalk.org Forum Index -> Belief, Religion & Philosophy  
Page 1 of 1


 
Recent Topics
» Chapter 2. Where I Lived, and What I Lived For
by Robert Tulip on Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:13 pm

» Chapter 1. Economy
by Robert Tulip on Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:45 pm

» Religion and Ecological Responsibility
by Frank 013 on Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:34 pm

» Chapter 4. Sounds
by DWill on Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:19 pm

» Hello from Constance963
by Penelope on Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:02 pm

» What is Transcendentalism?
by Thomas Hood on Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:50 pm

» Chapter 3. Reading
by WildCityWoman on Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:08 am

» Bill Benners, author of "My Sister's Keeper"
by Chris OConnor on Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:09 am

» Hi I am BookWorm82! Love some suggestions...
by Chris OConnor on Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:03 am

» Hi From Seshet- I am new!
by Chris OConnor on Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:00 am




BookTalk.org Suggests


Imagine No Superstition: The Power to Enjoy Life With No Guilt, No Shame, No Blame by Stephen Frederick

Scheisshaus Luck: Surviving the Unspeakable in Auschwitz and Dora by Pierre Berg with Brian Brock

Beyond Reasonable Doubt by Geoff J. Henley

Palace Council by Stephen L. Carter

How to Get Rich as a Televangelist or Faith Healer by Bill Wilson

Silver: My Own Tale As Written by Me with a Goodly Amount of Murder by Edward Chupack

Rising Above The Influence: A True Story about Alcohol, Drugs, and Recovery by Stephen J. Della Valle

Are You Famous? Touring America with Alaska's Fiddling Poet by Ken Waldman

Additional Book Suggestions


Poll
Have you ever parked in a handicapped spot?

Yes [4]
No [15]

You must login to vote


BookTalk.org is a book discussion group, also known as a reading group or book club. We read and talk about non-fiction books, as a group. Live author chats where book group members can interact with and interview authors are common. We often give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys booktalk.  Booktalk is a free online reading group that features quality book reviews, resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. Non-fiction chat, book forum, literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today. Suggest nonfiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to plug their books or ask for an author chat or interview.

MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEABOUTBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSLINKSBLOGSFAQDONATECONTACT

BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
• On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton • 50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. Harrison • Walden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David Thoreau • Exile and the Kingdom by Albert Camus • Our Inner Ape: A Leading Primatologist Explains Why We Are Who We Are by Frans de Waal • Your Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year-History of the Human Body by Neil Shubin • No Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthy • The Age of American Unreason by Susan Jacoby • Ten Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David Haberman • Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad • The Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window Into Human Nature by Stephen Pinker • A Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini • The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil by Philip Zimbardo • Responsibility and Judgment by Hannah Arendt • Interventions by Noam Chomsky • Godless in America by George A. Ricker • Religious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. Haiman • Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future by Phil McKibben • The God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael PollanI, Claudius : From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies: The Next Stage of History by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right by Al FrankenThe Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From the Big Bang To the 21st Century by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of Nature by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES
Baloney Detection KitBanned Book ListBook OrdersMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism Books

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2008. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group