Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BLOGS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:59 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Aug. 2000 - The Rationalistic Fallacy 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11881
Images: 0
Location: Florida
Highscores: 145
Thanks: 735
Thanked: 339 times in 271 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Aug. 2000 - The Rationalistic Fallacy
This thread is for discussing Massimo Pigliucci's August 2000 "Rationally Speaking" article entitled The Rationalistic Fallacy.

Quote:
The rationalistic fallacy


If you are of the lot who is stubbornly trying to improve critical thinking skills around the world and feels a bit frustrated by the wave of nonsense that regularly hits the airwaves, you are not alone. If you insist in thinking that all you need to do is to explain things just a little bit better and people will see the light, you are committing what is known as the "rationalistic fallacy."

It is probably true that better knowledge and understanding of science improves one's ability to grasp the real world; if that were not the case the entire education system should be thrown out, a step that only a minority of right wingers is prepared to take in the US at this moment. But it is also undeniably true that explaining science to many people does not make them any less true believers in pseudoscience.

For example, John Moore reports in an article in The Science Teacher (May 2000) that subjects were surveyed for their beliefs in the paranormal, UFOs and astrology before taking a course which dissected the evidential bases for all these pseudosciences. While skepticism had marginally increased toward the end of the course, credulity had returned with a vengeance only a year after the test!

It seems to me that we should try to understand what causes the rationalistic fallacy if we hope to make any progress in fighting the rampant irrationalism that manifests itself in countless forms. It might save us a lot of misdirected efforts and a trip or two to the psychotherapist when the depression hits.

The first thing to realize is that many people who believe in all sorts of weird things are not stupid; at least, not in the generally accepted sense of the term. Sure, if we define intelligence as the ability to grasp the real world, then anybody who does not understand quantum mechanics is an idiot. But remember the immortal words of physicist Richard Feynman: "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics."

No, the fact is that many people who believe in pseudoscience live successful lives. Some are college graduates. They can understand very well the reality of everyday life; sometimes they even successfully make complex decisions such as investing their money or planning a career. The answer must therefore lie elsewhere.

I think the problem is in what we mean by "understanding reality." Thomas Henry Huxley, the 19th century scientist known as "Darwin's bulldog," was very successful in lecturing to the general public, to an extent that neither Richard Dawkins nor Stephen Gould can dream of today. Huxley's fundamental philosophy was that science is common sense writ large. Since most people are equipped with both an innate curiosity and a moderate dose of common sense, if we explain things appealing to their already existing mental tools they will understand. Indeed, this is the philosophy behind most science documentaries.

The problem is that most modern science is not a matter of common sense at all! On the contrary, from physics to cosmology, from evolutionary to molecular biology, our current scientific understanding of the world is extremely counter-intuitive. The reason for this is that science's realm of investigation now literally spans the whole of creation, from the beginning of time until now (roughly 20 billion years) and from the subatomic level to the largest aggregates of galaxies. Let us remember that in Huxley's time most scientists thought the earth was a few million years old, the existence of galaxies was yet to be discovered, and nobody had the foggiest idea of what an atom or a gene was.

Evolutionary psychologists such as Steven Pinker suggest an explanation for this state of affairs. According to the standard Darwinian theory, our brains are at least in part the result of natural selection to improve our fitness; but the question is: to what kind of environment? Obviously, the one that we have inhabited for most of our evolutionary existence: forests and savannahs, where "reality" meant being able to procure food and mates while carefully avoiding predators. Is it any wonder, then, that we simply can't understand quantum mechanics?

If we add to this mix the fact that people still want answers to the fundamental questions of life (probably an annoying byproduct of being self-aware), it doesn't take much to understand why evolution and the Big Bang are discarded in favor of all-powerful and all-good imaginary friends who watch over every detail of our lives (especially the sexual scenes). Even the much-touted fact that Europeans accept evolution and are less religiously fundamentalist than Americans has, I would argue, a far less flattering explanation than it is usually assumed. It is not that Europeans are smarter or know more science (this is demonstrably not so); rather, it is probably that through history they have had their fill of religious wars and witch hunts and they are putting their current trust in another category of priests, the scientists (at least until these, too, screw things up in some major way).

So, what do we do about it? Unfortunately, identifying the causes doesn't necessarily cure the disease. We are in no position to reshape the human brain to bring it up to speed with the current human environment. We can, however, get more familiar with the large literature on human cognitive neuro-sciences; getting to know how the brain works has to be the first step toward designing better tools and arguments to educate people.

We can also be more understanding when we do confront an irrational position, and not dismiss our interlocutor as a simpleton (at least, not too quickly). Demonstrating sympathy and reaching out to the "right brain" may be a better way to get to the left one. But that is subject matter for another column.

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."



Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:49 pm
Profile Email YIM WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11881
Images: 0
Location: Florida
Highscores: 145
Thanks: 735
Thanked: 339 times in 271 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Aug. 2000 - The Rationalistic Fallacy
This is one of my favorite Rationally Speaking articles because I can relate to it so much.

Quote:
If you are of the lot who is stubbornly trying to improve critical thinking skills around the world and feels a bit frustrated by the wave of nonsense that regularly hits the airwaves, you are not alone. If you insist in thinking that all you need to do is to explain things just a little bit better and people will see the light, you are committing what is known as the "rationalistic fallacy."

I am soooooo guilty of this!

Where was Massimo when I needed him? I've been pulling my hair out debating faith vs. reason for about 20 years now. How many people have I helped escape the irrationality of mysticism? Maybe 2 or 3.

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."



Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:51 pm
Profile Email YIM WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Addict

BookTalk.org Moderator

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2262
Images: 6
Location: Michigan
Thanks: 773
Thanked: 572 times in 413 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Aug. 2000 - The Rationalistic Fallacy
Good post.

it lives AGAIN!


_________________
Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence.
-James Williamson MD

Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
-Derek Bok


Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:03 pm
Profile Personal album
Years of membership
Sophomore


Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 253
Location: Wheaton, Illinois, USA
Thanks: 21
Thanked: 32 times in 29 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Aug. 2000 - The Rationalistic Fallacy
Johnson,

Thanks for resurrecting this post (pun intended). I have been wondering lately if there are not three (as opposed to two) ways to see the world. The rational common-sense traditional-science approach, the magical-religion approach, and the non common-sensical but rational quantum mechanical approach. I know I am leaving out the in-between approaches that most people really use to make sense of the world; like most Christians that accept modern evolutionary and geological theory. But, I guess my real question is, where does QM fit? Pigliucci more than just mentions it; he goes to some trouble to explain why it does not seem rational, even though it is.


_________________
--Gary

"Freedom is feeling easy in your harness" --Robert Frost


Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:45 pm
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
Experienced

Silver Contributor

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 119
Location: Oak Ridge, TN
Highscores: 1
Thanks: 11
Thanked: 17 times in 12 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: Aug. 2000 - The Rationalistic Fallacy
GaryG48 wrote:
Johnson,

Thanks for resurrecting this post (pun intended). I have been wondering lately if there are not three (as opposed to two) ways to see the world. The rational common-sense traditional-science approach, the magical-religion approach, and the non common-sensical but rational quantum mechanical approach. I know I am leaving out the in-between approaches that most people really use to make sense of the world; like most Christians that accept modern evolutionary and geological theory. But, I guess my real question is, where does QM fit? Pigliucci more than just mentions it; he goes to some trouble to explain why it does not seem rational, even though it is.


Where does QM fit in? Everywhere! It's just too tiny to see unless you have really really good eyesight. :)


_________________
Tom


Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:03 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Master of Posting

Gold Contributor
Book Discussion Leader

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3707
Location: Berryville, Virginia
Thanks: 627
Thanked: 499 times in 401 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Aug. 2000 - The Rationalistic Fallacy
It''s a good column that describes well the tendency of many people to reserve a compartment for beliefs that can't be explained rationally. As Massimo says, there doesn't appear to be a negative correlation between what we call success and having some irrational beliefs. I think people normally maintain a firewall between these beliefs and truly vital matters relating to survival and increased well-being. If they fail to do this, we diagnose insanity.

A couple of things might be missing from his remarks. One is what Todd Riniolo said about the individual not being the best judge of his own rationality. Probably no one, Riniolo said, is a totally consistent critical thinker for this reason. So the rationalistic fallacy should perhaps include that caveat. We might also consider the Buddhist warning about attachment to ego whenever we feel a strong sense that we are being rational and others are not. Another thing to add is that the best moments humans experience on earth are probably not moments of rational insight, but rather of emotional pleasure or more to the point, emotional reward. If we look closely at religion, especially at its power to give people intense, shared emotional experience, we better understand why it has persisted and in some form probably always will.



Last edited by DWill on Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.



The following user would like to thank DWill for this post:
GaryG48, johnson1010, Saffron
Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:58 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Addict

BookTalk.org Moderator

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2262
Images: 6
Location: Michigan
Thanks: 773
Thanked: 572 times in 413 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Aug. 2000 - The Rationalistic Fallacy
Magical thinking is like being an Alcoholic. No one can make you be a critical thinker, you have to want it for yourself.

The first step is recognizing you have a problem.


_________________
Have you tried that? Looking for answers?
Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?

Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence.
-James Williamson MD

Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.

In the absence of God, I found Man.
-Guillermo Del Torro

If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
-Derek Bok


The following user would like to thank johnson1010 for this post:
Interbane
Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:10 am
Profile Personal album
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Support BookTalk.org 
If you appreciate BookTalk.org please consider donating a few dollars to help keep us online. See who supports us.
Make a donation
RECENT DONATIONS:
• giselle - $50 January
• nomsisa - $50 September
• giselle - $50 September

Featured Books

Recent Blogging 

Layers of Writing

If someone were to ask me how many times they should proofread, how many drafts, I would tell them they were already wrong if they thought there was some certain magic number to ma… more

Posted: 11 days ago
by drewdamato

The 12th Disciple and Poor Richard's Downtown Colorado Springs

The 12th Disciple is now being stocked at Poor Richard's Bookstore in Colorado Springs. We're happy to have the title at such a historic location in Colorado Springs. If… more

Posted: 12 days ago
by 12th disciple

...

For most of us, a very big part of our lives will be a dark place, we wont realize it. We live, we eat, we have some fun, we go to school, we sleep. But it will come the time, when… more

Posted: 12 days ago
by aracelip7

Hello world!

Welcome to BookTalk.org Blogs. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

See those links at the very top of the page? To get into your control panel for… more

Posted: 13 days ago
by drewdamato

The Road to Bloodlines

It's finally out. My vampire masterpiece Bloodlines. I came up with the idea of this book one night when I was wasted in college watching Bram Stoker's Dracula and the … more

Posted: 13 days ago
by drewdamato

Bloodlines

This is probably one of my favorite books. I wrote this as a lifelong vampire fan writing for the sake of vampire fans. I tried to stay true to the myths of vampires and not chan… more

Posted: 13 days ago
by drewdamato

There's an election this year?

The 12th Disciple's endorsement for a Presidential Candidate...we'll pass. If many haven't learned over the past several decades, centuries, and millennia, the gover… more

Posted: 19 days ago
by 12th disciple

New Books

So I've been looking for new books to read, but I haven't found any that have caught my attention lately. I want to try and venture out into a different genre, but I'… more

Posted: 25 days ago
by spazzymagee

Unethical Apple

For those who constantly gripe about jobs being sent overseas, focus your anger on this. Read about how one of the most profitable companies prided by American citizens offshores t… more

Posted: 27 days ago
by vetwriter

Role of the Individual Augmentee in the Military

An article of mine regarding the role of the Individual Augmentee in the military has been published on Blogging Authors. Read the article at:

http://bloggingauthors.com/bl… more

Posted: 29 days ago
by vetwriter

Hello world!

Welcome to BookTalk.org Blogs. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

See those links at the very top of the page? To get into your control panel for… more

Posted: 29 days ago
by mryan2930

A Second In Time

Its January 1945 and British, Commonwealth, US and POWs from various other nationalities are finally awaiting liberation from the various camps in Eastern Europe, where some of the… more

Posted: 29 days ago
by carolemct

Hiding The Details In The Fine Print Still Works

A good friend of mine recently received a pre-paid credit card. She went to pay for a $20.00 gas purchase only to later find out that over a $70.00 hold was placed on her card for… more

Posted: 31 days ago
by life is a business

There’s No Such Thing As A Blank Canvas In Life

While watching the bube tube (TV) this morning I stumbled on a motivational speaker saying “today marks a new year, you now have a blank canvas to work from.”

After hearing th… more

Posted: 38 days ago
by life is a business

Happy New Year!

The 12th Disciple wishes you and yours a Happy New Year. Many of us hope and pray that 2012 will bring better leadership in the government of the United States, better leadership i… more

Posted: 39 days ago
by 12th disciple

Does fiction have a role to play in educating people about real events?

The Cat & The Nightingale Saga, the docu drama version of The Weekend Trippers, also tells Rifleman Ted TaylorÂ’s story but in a slightly different way. It too tells of the… more

Posted: 40 days ago
by carolemct

Out With The Woe Is Me And in With The “Look At Me”

In 2011 I published my book; in the book I outlined 9 Key Principles to Prosperity (happiness).  Like many of you, I walked through 2011 with the Woe is me attitude. When… more

Posted: 40 days ago
by life is a business

Original Thoughts, Do They Exist Anymore?

More and more these days I see people using social media to quote what someone else has said. I see people posting their favorite rappers lyrics, lines from movies and what seems t… more

Posted: 42 days ago
by life is a business

14th December. Wednesday

IÂ’m down the school for the first time today. My friend visited two weeks ago and said it was chaos. They must have heard I was back because everything is tidy and orderly today… more

Posted: 48 days ago
by heledd

...

I'm quite positive that everyone who enters this site has the same thing in mind: fear of seeing a world without books, without literature. We see it everyday, more people qui… more

Posted: 49 days ago
by aracelip7





BookTalk.org Chat Room 
Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room

Enter our Chat [0]

Chat Room Always Open!

Tell your friends when to meet you
in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.

Booktalk.org on Facebook 


If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.




BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSBLOGSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Lost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2011. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank