Do you fear death?

Timothy Schoonover · Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2003 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Do you fear death?

Auswig:

Of which particular theology, if it should happen to have a name, are you so convinced?

Muzadi:

Quote:
I said in an earlier post that I emotionally fear death, but I also recognize intellectually that it is a function of my hardwiring, and doesn't make any rational sense beyond the organism that is me having built into it the desire to continue its existence.

Saying that it is irrational to intellectually fear death is to say that it makes no difference whether you or anyone else lives or dies, intellectually. Society could cease to exist, and intellectually, it makes no difference. The point is, I don't think you can differentiate the emotional and intellectual in such a way, nor is it healthy to do so. On the intellectual hand, ascribing value to life is irrational--a mere function of biology, and on the emotional han, the exact opposite. Whether anthropocentrism or not, I think there needs to be a unification between the emotional and the intellectual that does not require one to live their life in continual contradiction.

Religion is one attempt to bridge this divide, but as most of us would agree, it has failed. Various philosophies also have tried, many have failed. I am so tired of the rhetorical and the sloganistic answers to such a *complex* issue, and if there is not let's not pretend that there is. Otherwise, you're better off in an open-minded, tolerant church.

muzadi · Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2003 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Do you fear death?

Actually, I would disagree.

Saying that it "is irrational to intellectually fear death" is not, as you say, to say that it makes no difference whether you or anyone else lives or dies. It does make a difference, since by that the universe is different, and, more personally, from the point of view of the people who you interact with, it will also be different.

I also don't think it's an issue of there being a contradiction between the intellectual and the emotional, since if both are simply ways of perceiving. Neither changes the actuality, just how an individual interprets something, in this case, death. Emotion is perfectly logical within its own framework, and this doesn't contradict or fight the intellect - it's just a different vantage point.

Philosophy and religion are ongoing ways of addressing the issue of death, among other issues. They are memetic constructs that interact on an individual level with each person; as such, they function at a personal level, not a societal level, when we are talking about perception. Individual philosophies and religions fail for individual people only.

I would agree, certainly, that few philosophies and religions have proven successful from *both* a rational and an emotional perspective, and I do think that to be ultimately effective and useful, a philosophy/religion must work on both of these levels. Some have gotten close - Taoism, Zen Buddhism, Sufi, Pantheism (particularly, I think, Heretical Pantheism).

Geoff Tuffli
dubogula@yahoo.com

The Recordings of the Book of Heresies
www.therecordings.net

Timothy Schoonover · Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Do you fear death?

Muzadi

Quote:
Saying that it "is irrational to intellectually fear death" is not, as you say, to say that it makes no difference whether you or anyone else lives or dies. It does make a difference, since by that the universe is different, and, more personally, from the point of view of the people who you interact with, it will also be different.

Certainly you do not think that my use of the word "difference" implies merely alternative outcome? Of course there exists difference when an individual lives or dies, in the purely technical sense of the term. A world where I exist is most obviously different than a world were I do not exist. The point was, there is really no meaningful (and please don't misuse that word) difference, intellectually, between one state of the universe and another. For example, in one universe I die in a plane crash, in another I survive unharmed, and in another I survive as a paralytic. Intellectualy we have no basis by which to discriminate between these universes other than to describe their inequality, if as you imply, it is intellectually irrational to fear death. Not until we approach the issue on the emotional level do we have any basis by which to evaluate the alternative states, which is why I think you say, "and, more personally, from the point of view of the people who you interact with, it also will be different." It's as if you're justifying your objection to my argument by slipping an emotional appeal in the back door. (i.e. bait and switch).

Quote:
I also don't think it's an issue of there being a contradiction between the intellectual and the emotional, since if both are simply ways of perceiving. Neither changes the actuality, just how an individual interprets something, in this case, death. Emotion is perfectly logical within its own framework, and this doesn't contradict or fight the intellect - it's just a different vantage point.

Well, to say that the intellect and the emotion are various ways of perceiving reality is a pretty big assumption. First of all, that statement flies in the face of the notion of objective reality, which I am not going to affirm or deny here. However, I think that there are many, far more knowledgeable than I, who would would take issue with your assertion that reason (i.e. the intellect) does not represent actuality. There are other difficulties with this as well. It's easy to justify your emotion as a valid means of percieving reality when it comes to death, but what about speaking in tongues, or the salvation experience, or prophesying, or hearing from God? Are those emotional experiences also "perfectly logical within their own framework" in such a way that "doesn't contradict or fight the intellect." I find it ironic that as a scientist, you are willing to so easily throw away the scientific method's claim to reality.

The problem is, we are both emotional and rational creatures. It is irresponsible, in my opinion, to compartmentalize the two aspects. We can never be free from our emotion any more than we can be free from our reason. To say one is "perfectly logical in its own framework" blindly ignores the fact that neither can exist entirely alone in that framework.

So again I would assert that the solution to problems such as this will be found in an integration, rather than distinction, between emotion and reason in such a way that does not unduly subjugate one to the other, or it will not be found at all.

Jeremy1952 · Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Do you fear death?

Timothy, Responding to Muzadi

Quote:
Well, to say that the intellect and the emotion are various ways of perceiving reality is a pretty big assumption. First of all, that statement flies in the face of the notion of objective reality, which I am not going to affirm or deny here. However, I think that there are many, far more knowledgeable than I, who would would take issue with your assertion that reason (i.e. the intellect) does not represent actuality.

I didn't take the original statement that way at all. It is true that intellect is a way of perceiving reality; how does this imply that there is no objective reality to perceive? It is also true that emotion reflects an underlying reality. Example: a man is telling you that you can trust him. Everything you know about him, intellectually, tells you that he is trustworthy. Your intuition, however, is screaming "NO!" There is nothing mystical about this; numerous real facts – a disconnect between his words and gestures, registered subliminally; a connection between this situation and other situations, not consciously considered; whatever. The fact is that in actual, real, objective reality, this person is a liar and a threat; and the emotion of fear you are experiencing is also real. But even if the person were not a threat, it is still true that the emotion is a real emotion.

Quote:
To say one is "perfectly logical in its own framework" blindly ignores the fact that neither can exist entirely alone in that framework.

again, I'm not seeing exactly how this follows. Something can be perfectly logical and totally false. If you take a rationalist position, which it seems you do, then logic itself has an actual physical existence separate from the thinker/feeler who uses it.

muzadi · Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2003 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Do you fear death?

Timothy, I suspect we are agreeing more than we're disagreeing, though I think we're using different definitions, which is obscuring the issue.

You wrote, "I find it ironic that as a scientist, you are willing to so easily throw away the scientific method's claim to reality."

I don't throw away the scientific method's claim to reality, rather, I am putting in perspective. Kant made the point that it is impossible, using reason, to escape the perspectives, assumptiong and interpretations of one's own psychology. This doesn't mean that there is not objective reality, only that our attempts to understand and approach it are always going to be filtered through the lens of our own experience and psychology.

This does not reject the scientific method, but simply says that we need to understand that our understanding is always going to be colored by our perspective. It's much like the idea of a paradox - two things can seem to be contradictory (take quantum mechanics and general relativity) but in fact are not - each is simply looking at the same thing from two different angles.

From a more philosophical angle, look at the concept of "bad". If I do an action, it may be "bad" for me personally, but "good for someone else", so is the action bad? Or good? It's both - depending on the perspective. Similarly, I am not saying that there is no objective reality, only that we, as sentient creatures, are limited by our ability to sense and understand, and indeed, simply by our point of view. We should of course continue to use the scientific method, but just be aware of the limitations of perspective.

You also write:
"The problem is, we are both emotional and rational creatures. It is irresponsible, in my opinion, to compartmentalize the two aspects. We can never be free from our emotion any more than we can be free from our reason. To say one is "perfectly logical in its own framework" blindly ignores the fact that neither can exist entirely alone in that framework."

I think we're talking around each other here, because I do not see any contradiction. We are both emotional and rational creatures, or, more precisely, our emotion operates from a different perspective than our conscious reasoning - it's still logical, it is just worried about different things and has its own perspective and own experience.

In other words, I'm agreeing with you. :-)

Geoff Tuffli
dubogula@yahoo.com

The Recordings of the Book of Heresies
www.therecordings.net

Timothy Schoonover · Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2003 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Do you fear death?

Muzadi

You're probably right in that our dispute is more semantics than anything else. I would say, however, that we are impassed concerning whether the observed differences in emotion and intellect are merely paradoxical, that is a result of perception, or are, as such, contravening states of being. I've been trying to get around to reading Critique of Pure Reason, it's on my Palm, but alas, so many other things to do.

Kant does catch alot of flack, though.

Nonetheless, where does that leave us? How does this answer the question: How should we as sentient beings live in the light of our mortality? Why shouldn't I slit my wrists? Why is my life somehow better than a grasshoper's life. Earlier today I wondered if my life wouldn't be better as a meercat, not that my life is especially bad or anything, but I couldn't formula a decent argument to the contrary.

So my hope for this thread is to see our many brilliant minds push beyond a mere superficial examination of the issue and address the problem of actually living this mortal life of ours.

rielmajr · Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: To clarify...

I have enjoyed reading the posts on this age-old question and concern; and it is clear that our perspectives on death -- its significance, our fear of it -- may evolve over our lifetimes. Excluding the clinically depressed, young people are likely to fear it more than the old, since they have not lived a full life. The death of a young person almost always seems more tragic than the gentle decline of someone who has made it to the end. Our attitude toward death may also be tempered by by any close calls we have along the way with death. I can speak from experience that, having survived cancer as a mere lad of 32 some (gad!) 28 years ago, I have thought often and hard on the subject. Now as (I guess) a member of the senile citizen class, I have less and less fear of death and use its inevitability (and relative imminence) to help define what I consider it important to do. It does seem to give lustre to the remaining time I have. But as to the fact of death, I have absolutely no fear -- and no expectation of anything beyond except personal annihilation. That comes as a kind of comfort. Beliefs in an afterlife have their beneficial effects in this life by providing comfort. At the end, if I am happy (in the Aristotelian sense, having lived a full and productive life), I think it will be a fitting coda.

Juxtaform · Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Do you fear death?

Often in the mornings right after waking the first thing that happens is the feeling of emerging from a deep sense of disorientation. The next occurence is the realization of 'me' and a feeling of consciousness, of being, and the things I identify with that concept.. where I am and what time and day it is usually connect first. Following that is a shattering realization of an eternal oblivion.
Knowing I'm going to be dead for infinite length of time is a little easier in the knowledge that waiting an infinite length of time for this moment to be alive didn't seem so long. Seen as being stuck between two infinite durations can actually cheer me up, since just being here seems like a bizzare and preposterous proposition.

TNcoondawg · Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Do you fear death?

Personally, I don't want to die prematurely. I guess my biggest fear is that of leaving too many things undone and having more negative effects than positive on others lives.

I am not a religious person, so I am pretty much at peace with the fact that this is a natural life cycle and that my body will return to being worm dirt. To me, it's akin to what Robert Heinlein puts forth in "Stranger in a Strange Land". I would like to think that my death would make me simply more a part of the people in my life...my close friends and family. That rather than mourn for a long period of time, that they can rejoice at the time that we had together.

Ernie

(who is in no hurry to become worm dirt)

Paul Hanks · Posted: Thu May 15, 2003 1:34 am Post subject: Re: Do you fear death?

I think the late French actor, Lino Ventura, said it best:

"It's not that I fear death, I'm just afraid of not living."

Here's one from Epicurus:

"Why should I fear death? When I am, it is not. When I am not, it is."

wmmurrah · Posted: Sun May 18, 2003 9:02 am Post subject: fear of death

I am afraid to die. Mostly I am afraid of dying without doing anything notable. But I also realize that my fear of death makes my enjoyment of life possible. For if I believed that upon death I would be infinitely happier how could I enjoy my time here? I remember as a child the night before Christmas being pure torture. Any enjoyment I experienced was the anticipation of what gifts I would receive the next day. I did not then enjoy, as I do now, the time spent with family I had not seen for a long spell. So, not only do I fear death, I value my fear of death.

Timothy Schoonover · Posted: Tue May 20, 2003 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Do you fear death?

Reading rielmajr's response was encouraging for me, especially the following segment. I feel he has obtained an authentic understanding of human finitude

Quote:
I have less and less fear of death and use its inevitability (and relative imminence) to help define what I consider it important to do.

I am 23 and find myself spending much of my time on frivolous and trivial activities. I fear death, but I can't seem to grasp how very real it is, and consequently live as if my time is limitless. Well, anyway, I haven't seen much of rielmajr around lately. I miss his input and which he'd have stayed around.


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