Not all ideas are good

cinnamon321 · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:49 pm Post subject: Not all ideas are good

I remember making the statement once that " Ideas themselves are not bad, it's just what you do with them." I will take that back. I think that any idea that twists the truth is bad. Ideas that are untrue or twist the truth are often used for selfish purposes, or in the case of religion to act like a placebo. It is true that ideas should not be supressed and all ideas should be subject to critical and logical analysis before one accepts them (for personal/societal benefit), but after thinking them through some ideas just plain stink but are widely held by others (i.e. creationism). These ideas create useless conflicts and waste a lot of peoples time....(stating the obvious)...what can we do about it...if anything?

Timothy Schoonover · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 1:56 am Post subject: Re: Not all ideas are good

There is an interesting concept in linguistics concerning the nature of expression. Essentially, the theory states that expressions serve the dual role of both description and action. When you say something like, "Your house is on fire" you not only describe a state of events, but you also imply that something should be done (or not done) about that state events. In other words, there is no expression, no matter how descriptive, that is not also to some degree performative. Expressions cannot exist in a vacuum, they are not abstract, unrelated, and autonomous, but always alreadyaffect the agent of expression as well as the subject to which an expression is addressed.

In this sense, ideas cannot be considered innocuous. Indeed the view holds that ideas and actions are not discrete phenomena, that they are not distinct, and that you can not differentiate between the subject (environment) and the object (element of an environment).

What does this mean regarding issues such as censorship? If ideas themselves are not bad, [but] what you do with them" can no longer hold, if ideas are not as harmless as we may have thought, shouldn't we introduce some sort of bad idea filter? And if so on what basis should we discriminate? On an idea's ability to endure the trials of rational inquiry? On its efficacy, that is its utility as a means to an end (which may or may not sync with 'truth')? How are we to evaluate good ideas from bad ideas, and what stance should we take in opposition to bad ideas?

(And no, I'm not prompting myself with these questions.)

wmmurrah · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Not all ideas are good

Tim,

I agree that there should be a filter for "bad ideas" but I am convinced that this filter should be within each individual person and not dictated by the government or any group of people. I also I believe I know what that filter must be: It is the ability to reason. I am against "protecting" others from "bad ideas." Instead I believe your priority is to help young people (and the older one's who are willing to learn) how to think. We spend too much time in our schools teaching people what to think instead of teaching them how to think. When, to our surprise, these young people go on to make poor decisions, we stand around and scratch our heads saying "We taught them what was right. Why are they making bad choices?" Then, Instead of admitting that we are doing things wrongly, we blame drugs, or peer pressure or ADHD or absentee fathers or etc.

Why can't we realize that other people are just like us: They do not like to be told what to think. But you would be surprised how most people respond when you start showing them how to think.

My last job was as a counselor in an alternative school. I worked with the kids that were kicked out of the mainstream school for being caught making "poor choices." For the first two years I approached the kids with the traditional techniques of "helping troubled youth." I told them that drugs were bad and why, told them why there choices were bad, listened to their feelings (what little feelings an adolescent is both aware of and willing to share) etc. After trying that for a while and realizing it didn't work well, I decided to try something different (the scientific approach

). I started teaching a "critical reasoning" class. We went over simple decision making processes, basic logic and reasoning as well as talking about pseudo-science, paranormal experience and the like. My groups became very popular(with the students). They loved it and they were thinking for themselves!

And what topics do you think came up over and over again? God and evolution. I never brought these subjects up (I was working in a public school in Alabama, you know, the state that legally requires that a disclaimer be put in each science book that contains any information about evolution

$:\$

) but it apparently was on these kids minds and they finally had a forum to talk about it. I felt within my rights and responsibilities to share my views on the subjects: I am an atheist, what that really means, that I believe in evolution and why, that creationism whether true or not(and I'm convinced not) is not science and why. And all the kids respected that, even the one's (most of them, though not as many as I would have thought) that held opposing views.

I feel I have been ranting so I will stop here, I could go on for ages.

cinnamon321 · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Not all ideas are good

I think that if teens are taught better critical thinking skills that might be a good solution to the idea filter problem. So far, I think wmurrah was made some great points. Kids are lacking in critical thinking skills, and it seems to me that education is doing nothing to tackle that problem.

belly · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 12:41 am Post subject: Re: Not all ideas are good

I am not so sure it is up to *education* alone to teach critical thinking skills. I learnt mine early and in the home...i was given the freedom to develop them in the world. I get real picky about the terms good and bad. In using them one places a personal judgement upon the subject. The reality is good and bad are pretty relative and subject to ones biases and perceptions. I am not saying one cannot hold an opinion, we all do, just we need to becareful how high we hold it and who we are excluding when we hold it too tightly.

Jeremy1952 · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Not all ideas are good

I think a good analogy for bad ideas/censorship is bad genes/eugenics. The cure is more dangerous than the disease.

cinnamon321 · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Not all ideas are good

I agree with Jeremy1952 completely on that one.

Chris OConnor · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:12 am Post subject: Re: Not all ideas are good

Cinnamon

I've long believed that critical thinking skills are essential for real-world survival, but they're rarely taught in the United States public education system. As Jenna said, these skills can and should be taught in the home too. But what happens when the parents lack the skills themselves?

Seeing the sorry state of thinking skills in the general population fuels me to want to make a change. Years ago I thought of the idea of creating a nonprofit to help teach kids how to think - not what to think. An acronym I came up with is FACTS, or Foundation for the Advancement of Critical Thinking Skills.

But here is the problem. There is a long chain of stinkin' thinkin' that stands in the way of any attempt to educate children. I think most people would agree that if you want to make a real change in this world you have to start with the children. You have to get to the root of the problem. The Communists knew this and would brainwash the children soon after they began walking. Howard Bloom, in "The Lucifer Principle," talked about how the Chinese dictator focused on changing the hearts of the children to maximize the effect he would have on the rest of the population.

So - children are the future. They're the key to it all. We must teach them how to think critically. BUT...first we have to get the parents permission! This is what I meant by "a long chain of stinkin' thinkin'." How do you teach kids the difference between a valid and an invalid argument? You use examples they can relate to. But here is where things get tricky. Most critical thinking books use subjects like astrology as an example. The problem is so many adults believe this crap. The whole point in working on the kids heads is to break this chain, but the parents have the legal right to step in and pull their child out. How many housewives actually recognize astrology as bullshit? How many actually know that John Edwards isn't really talking to dead people? Would they actually allow their children to be exposed to the idea that these claims are not supported by empirical evidence, and as a result should not be accepted?

Chris

Edited by: Chris OConnor at: 4/25/03 2:12:43 am

cinnamon321 · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Not all ideas are good

Most people I know only use astrology for entertainment purposes. A few of the Christians I know think that John Edwards talks to the dead, but that's not the majority of them. It would be hard to get some people (creationists as an example) to allow their children to be taught about evolution or the big bang because they don't believe it to be true. I believe that some of them cannot be convinced! We CAN'T force anyone to do anything. That is just plain WRONG. I wish there was a way to teach better critical thinking skills to kids of parents like that without offending the parents. I know some people would remain faithful to a religion after learning some critical thinking, but they'd be a bit more aware of the world around them and less likely to get ripped off by the psychic friends network. I don't object if people believe in God, but it is truly sad to see people believing in something as ridiculous as astrology or a guy that talks to the "dead".
Courtney

JeffBailey · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Not all ideas are good

Chris says,
"Most critical thinking books use subjects like astrology as an example."

It seems to me that it would be very easy to teach a critical thinking skills course without using "lightening rod" issues(anything superstitious or religious in origin). I know those issues are of particular interest to most people in this group. I get the feeling from many of the active posters they would be happy to stamp out religion. Though I am an ardent skeptic, I find it unlikely that will happen through any kind of direct method (which would be viewed as an attack by the adherents).

I do however think that critical skills could be taught using examples of political controversy of sufficient age as to pose no threat. For instance, while teaching about the McCarthy era. You could also use relevant current business issues like the recent internet stock bubble. Why did so many people believe that you could make something from nothing? As a software designer with no technical business skills it was readily apparent to me that you can only retrieve in value from a company the profit it makes. The same critical thinking skills that serve me to troubleshoot programs, political issues, and business issues could be applied to philosophical issues on a students own time.

The interest of so many members of this group with the religous or superstitious nature of most people's day to day existence seems to blind them to any other possibility for education. Unfortunately, those who paved the way before us and wrote much of the skeptical literature were interested in the same things.

Edited by: JeffBailey at: 4/25/03 9:39:29 am

cinnamon321 · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: Not all ideas are good

I think Jeff has a good idea. What he is talking about is a more practical application of critical thinking skills. The examples that Jeff mentioned could teach kids a lot more than using superstitions and astrology as examples to teach critical thinking skills. Stamping out religion is wrong (in my opinion) and it makes us no better than the people who want to stamp out atheism, communism, etc by imposing their beliefs on others.(which never works in the long run) I think some of us (including myself) could take some time to reflect on our stance. I think that people are entitled to their opinions no matter how absurd they may seem to me. I don't believe in discriminating against someone or putting them down just because they may hold a different opinion on an issue than myself, but I don't believe that I have to agree with that opinion. I think it's hard to live up to that statement, but I'm going to try the best I can.

Edited by: cinnamon321 at: 4/25/03 11:06:04 pm


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