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Heaven or Hell
Many believe, and I am one of them, that without rewards and consequences religion would never have caught on. Religion places you at the will of something all knowing and all powerful. That something will make a decision when you die and you will be rewarded or punished based on the life you lead. Without the do this and you will be rewarded, and the don't do this or else, clause in all religious contracts those documents would be reduced to a suggested code of conduct. Nobody wants death to be the end of the road. Heaven and Hell and rules to get you to one and keep you out of the other is a sweet little back up plan incase you get hit by a bus.
My question is do you think the fear of hell, or the promise of heaven has contributed more to the epidemic that is religion?
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Re: Heaven or Hell
Religion has always used the most effective words to drive us where it desires. Fear and Greed. That is what hell and heaven represent. And no small amount of schadenfreude thrown in the mix.
Probably more than either of these, just plain old tradition may be the most potent tool of acquisition. Parents teach their children to be religious just because they are.
That doesn’t mean that they have even slightly investigated what it is their religion is supposed to mean, or what it is supposed to require of them. People say they are Christians and have never read the bible. People say they are Christians and do not follow the rules, or heed the holidays, or the commandments. Instead, they interpret their religion to be whatever they want it to be, then say that it is the model way for a Christian to behave. They pass on this nonsense without ever investigating it, simply because they know they are supposed to.
_________________ Have you tried that? Looking for answers? Or have you been content to be terrified of a thing you know nothing about?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the truth would be revealed through logic and evidence. -James Williamson MD
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
In the absence of God, I found Man. -Guillermo Del Torro
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. -Derek Bok
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Re: Heaven or Hell
johnson1010 wrote:
Religion has always used the most effective words to drive us where it desires. Fear and Greed. That is what hell and heaven represent. And no small amount of schadenfreude thrown in the mix.
Probably more than either of these, just plain old tradition may be the most potent tool of acquisition. Parents teach their children to be religious just because they are.
That doesn’t mean that they have even slightly investigated what it is their religion is supposed to mean, or what it is supposed to require of them.
Religions tell the observant what is required of them.
johnson1010 wrote:
People say they are Christians and have never read the bible.
You don't have to read the Bible to be a Christian.
johnson1010 wrote:
People say they are Christians and do not follow the rules,
There are no rules.
johnson1010 wrote:
or heed the holidays,
Not necessary.
johnson1010 wrote:
or the commandments.
Not required.
johnson1010 wrote:
Instead, they interpret their religion to be whatever they want it to be, then say that it is the model way for a Christian to behave.
They pass on this nonsense without ever investigating it, simply because they know they are supposed to.
Now it's you who is passing on nonsense here.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Heaven or Hell
KipperSnacks wrote:
Many believe, and I am one of them, that without rewards and consequences religion would never have caught on. My question is do you think the fear of hell, or the promise of heaven has contributed more to the epidemic that is religion?
For a very long time the Hebrews were not interested in eschatology. Their sages taught believers to "fear God" because of His potential (see Book of Job) but did not speak explicitly about heaven or hell. The Rambam, Maimonides, did write about Sheol (Hell) in the middle ages and modern Jews do pay some attention to end-time things. Judaism grew to only 0.2% of the world's population (Roper Organization research published in 1980’s) so maybe that supports your argument that the promise of heaven and the threat of hell are necessary for religion to become "epidemic."
Gibbon posits that the promise of heaven is what made Christianity so popular in the Roman armies. The armies then supported/spread organized Christianity across Europe.
I had a philosophy professor who claimed that people catch their religion the same way they catch chicken pox--always made sense to me.
_________________ --Gary
"Freedom is feeling easy in your harness" --Robert Frost
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Re: Heaven or Hell
First of all, welcome to Booktalk.org, the premier discussion forum on the internet. You will find it full of Free Thinkers, atheists, agnostics and me. I am a Young Earth Creationist, inerrancy of the Bible believing Christian. From your post it seems you anticipate a certain response, and on the whole, you will not be disappointed, on the other hand, I will not be agreeing with you.
KipperSnacks wrote:
Many believe, and I am one of them, that without rewards and consequences religion would never have caught on.
This sounds bad until one thinks a bit. Is there any activity one engages in which does not involve rewards and consequences?
KipperSnacks wrote:
Religion places you at the will of something all knowing and all powerful. That something will make a decision when you die and you will be rewarded or punished based on the life you lead.
This may be true for some religions but it is not true of Christianity.
KipperSnacks wrote:
Without the do this and you will be rewarded, and the don't do this or else, clause in all religious contracts those documents would be reduced to a suggested code of conduct.
You evidence a fundamental lack of understanding of religion. Let me phrase this as a hypothetical to avoid spending the next week arguing about the reality of the premise. Suppose the story or Adam and Eve in Genesis is true. After they ate from the forbidden tree were they condemned to hell?
KipperSnacks wrote:
Nobody wants death to be the end of the road.
With three possible exceptions, and depending on your eschatological beliefs everyone dies at the end of the road.
KipperSnacks wrote:
Heaven and Hell and rules to get you to one and keep you out of the other is a sweet little back up plan incase you get hit by a bus.
My question is do you think the fear of hell, or the promise of heaven has contributed more to the epidemic that is religion?
Why don't you tell me who the Sadducees were and then rephrase the question, or you might want to change it completely as it will affect your entire premise?
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Heaven or Hell
GaryG48 wrote:
KipperSnacks wrote:
Many believe, and I am one of them, that without rewards and consequences religion would never have caught on. My question is do you think the fear of hell, or the promise of heaven has contributed more to the epidemic that is religion?
For a very long time the Hebrews were not interested in eschatology. Their sages taught believers to "fear God" because of His potential (see Book of Job) but did not speak explicitly about heaven or hell. The Rambam, Maimonides, did write about Sheol (Hell) in the middle ages and modern Jews do pay some attention to end-time things. Judaism grew to only 0.2% of the world's population (Roper Organization research published in 1980’s) so maybe that supports your argument that the promise of heaven and the threat of hell are necessary for religion to become "epidemic."
Gibbon posits that the promise of heaven is what made Christianity so popular in the Roman armies. The armies then supported/spread organized Christianity across Europe.
I had a philosophy professor who claimed that people catch their religion the same way they catch chicken pox--always made sense to me.
From other children?
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
Last edited by stahrwe on Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heaven or Hell
KipperSnacks wrote:
Many believe, and I am one of them, that without rewards and consequences religion would never have caught on. Religion places you at the will of something all knowing and all powerful. That something will make a decision when you die and you will be rewarded or punished based on the life you lead. Without the do this and you will be rewarded, and the don't do this or else, clause in all religious contracts those documents would be reduced to a suggested code of conduct. Nobody wants death to be the end of the road. Heaven and Hell and rules to get you to one and keep you out of the other is a sweet little back up plan incase you get hit by a bus.
My question is do you think the fear of hell, or the promise of heaven has contributed more to the epidemic that is religion?
Heaven/hell was important historically in the growth of the first Christian faith, Catholicism. Offering salvation to just any old person, regardless of social stature, was something of an innovation. You didn't have to be prominent or a king to live forever in bliss. The downside for everyone was that this carrot wasn't going to be offered without the stick of hell. The church needed to be stingy with the promise of heaven or else heaven would lose its value as something people would work for and submit to all sorts of church doctrine to be able to attain. Hell was a handy device to dust off and make much more prominent than it had been in Judaism.
But when talking about the attractiveness of Christianity, don't forget the amazement people must have felt about a god sacrificing for them. That wasn't the way it had worked for all of history, with people being required to offer sacrifices to the gods. This must have sounded to many people like good news, indeed.
Last edited by DWill on Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heaven or Hell
Quote:
This sounds bad until one thinks a bit. Is there any activity one engages in which does not involve rewards and consequences?
Most everything we do is motivated by rewards and consequences, internal and external. Internal like dopamine or shame, external like prison or wealth. Unfortunately for us poor humans, these puppeteer strings are sometimes manipulated. The desire for heaven and the fear of hell are powerful manipulators. If the action to get to heaven and to avoid hell is spelled out clearly enough, there is no doubt we'll take these actions. That is, if we believe in heaven and hell. But therein lies the catch 22. Since the 'action' to get to heaven and hell is first and foremost to believe in the story that contains these fictional places. Once that step is taken, the puppeteer strings are like chains. You know that you should continue to believe, because if you falter and stop believing, you will go to hell. Heaven and Hell are two of the most powerful conceptual manipulators of all time. Don't get caught in the trap.
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Re: Heaven or Hell
KipperSnacks wrote:
Many believe, and I am one of them, that without rewards and consequences religion would never have caught on. Religion places you at the will of something all knowing and all powerful. That something will make a decision when you die and you will be rewarded or punished based on the life you lead.
A very common misconception both of Christianity and Judaism but especially true of Christianity.
KipperSnacks wrote:
Without the do this and you will be rewarded, and the don't do this or else, clause in all religious contracts those documents would be reduced to a suggested code of conduct. Nobody wants death to be the end of the road. Heaven and Hell and rules to get you to one and keep you out of the other is a sweet little back up plan incase you get hit by a bus.
Oddly, you seem fairly ignorant of religious doctrine. Neither Judaism not Christianity base salvation on conduct though a casual study of Judaism might lead one to believe that. Islam is even less prone to that concept since it is a very fatalistic religion. One's eternal state is totally up to Allah and while it is possible to guarantee the afterlife in certain narrow circumstances, for most Muslims its a 'crap shoot'.
KipperSnacks wrote:
My question is do you think the fear of hell, or the promise of heaven has contributed more to the epidemic that is religion?
See Below.
Interbane wrote:
Most everything we do is motivated by rewards and consequences, internal and external. Internal like dopamine or shame, external like prison or wealth. Unfortunately for us poor humans, these puppeteer strings are sometimes manipulated. The desire for heaven and the fear of hell are powerful manipulators. If the action to get to heaven and to avoid hell is spelled out clearly enough, there is no doubt we'll take these actions. That is, if we believe in heaven and hell. But therein lies the catch 22. Since the 'action' to get to heaven and hell is first and foremost to believe in the story that contains these fictional places. Once that step is taken, the puppeteer strings are like chains. You know that you should continue to believe, because if you falter and stop believing, you will go to hell. Heaven and Hell are two of the most powerful conceptual manipulators of all time. Don't get caught in the trap.
see above. Salvation in Christianity is not based on continued belief. It is a single act, one of acceptance. After that, one is expected to grow more spiritual, but that is not guaranteed and should one backslide, it doesn't reverse the process. The fundamental factor is Christian salavation is that one cannot earn one's way into heaven or hell for that matter.
DWill wrote:
Heaven/hell was important historically in the growth of the first Christian faith, Catholicism. Offering salvation to just any old person, regardless of social stature, was something of an innovation. You didn't have to be prominent or a king to live forever in bliss. The downside for everyone was that this carrot wasn't going to be offered without the stick of hell. The church needed to be stingy with the promise of heaven or else heaven would lose its value as something people would work for and submit to all sorts of church doctrine to be able to attain. Hell was a handy device to dust off and make much more prominent than it had been in Judaism.
Catholicism was not and is not the first Christian faith. First of all, your terminology is wrong. Catholicism is not a faith. Secondly, Catholicism was not even the first church order.
Of course, I could be confused about all of this because in other posts I have read assertions by Free Thinkers that Christianity really is worship of the Egyptian God Horus. Others assert that it is based on Mesopotamian religions amalgums, and still others that it is an adaptation of Mythraism. But I guess that in a philosophical construct which denies absolute truth, it doesn't matter.
DWill wrote:
But when talking about the attractiveness of Christianity, don't forget the amazement people must have felt about a god sacrificing for them. That wasn't the way it had worked for all of history, with people being required to offer sacrifices to the gods. This must have sounded to many people like good news, indeed.
I find this statement utterly amazing, insightful, and appreciation.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Heaven or Hell
Interbane wrote:
Quote:
Salvation in Christianity is not based on continued belief. It is a single act, one of acceptance.
Yet the bible says; "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned."
But you're saying is that you only need to believe the first time you hear the story? Well, I'm going to heaven then!!! When is the rapture?!?
If you were old enough to understand what the Gospel was all about; Jesus dying for your sins, and consciously affirmed your acceptance of that you are a Christian.
As to when the rapture will be, if you partcipate in the Bible books discussion you will find that answer.
A cautionary note. While Baptist doctrine teaches once saved, always saved there are other denominations who assert that it is possible to lose one's salvation. You must also consider that if you are a Christian, you are part of a spiritual kingdom rebellion against which has consequences.
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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Re: Heaven or Hell
So you are saying that to be a christian you do not have to follow gods law, commandments or read the bible. Rather, all one must do in order to be saved is accept Jesus as their saviour. Futhermore the act of accepting Jesus only happens once and ensures entrance to heaven irrespective of future events and actions.
Other then the fact that many chrisitians would disagree with your interpretation of the gospel, there are also many flaws that I personaly can not comprehend.
- How can one reconcile being a christian without reading the bible? Surely some understanding of god's word is required in order to make such a vow, rather than the hearsay of others. @_@ This reminds me of being in Christian life studies class back in school. The teacher told the whole class to close their eyes and said "if you want to be a christian all you have to do is put your hand up now."
- I thought that in order to fully accept christ into your heart you must also follow the law of the bible. Did'nt Jesus state that he did not come to destroy the law? Matheew 5:17?
So you believe that through Jesus sacrifice the laws are no longer used? Could you please explain to me how this abolished the laws, I am a little lost :s.
- I have seen quite a few christians reconcile their immoral behavior by saying It is ok, Jesus forgives all. As long as you say sorry to Jesus it does not matter. This sort of nonsense sprouts from the belief that all you require to gain eternity in heaven is to believe in jesus and accept him.
-
stahrwe wrote:
Religions tell the observant what is required of them..
And what is required of them and the consquences that are a result if these requirements are not fullfilled, can in part, be seen as being fueled by fear. Judgement day seems fair scary . While I agree that fear and the tradition of passing your religion onto your children (Which I can not stand as children are indoctrinated without the capacity to question or compare.) played a big part in the wide spread acquisition. Fear, however, is not the only reason for the epidemic that is religion. You have all forgotten that for many people it is simply a beacon of hope, that allows people to find strength through hardship. I am sure hope had as much influence as fear.
As for the rapture. According to the bible man that showed up at my door today it is very soon D:!
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Re: Heaven or Hell
Timothy wrote:
So you are saying that to be a christian you do not have to follow gods law, commandments or read the bible. Rather, all one must do in order to be saved is accept Jesus as their saviour. Futhermore the act of accepting Jesus only happens once and ensures entrance to heaven irrespective of future events and actions.
That is correct.
Timothy wrote:
Other then the fact that many chrisitians would disagree with your interpretation of the gospel, there are also many flaws that I personaly can not comprehend.
Christians disagree for many reasons; for some it just sounds too easy, others want power which they cannot justify without additional requirements, but whatever the reason, it is not complicated:
Ephesians 2:8-10 (King James Version) 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. John 3 1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Timothy wrote:
How can one reconcile being a christian without reading the bible? Surely some understanding of god's word is required in order to make such a vow, rather than the hearsay of others. @_@
It is not required. One should desire the things of God once a Christian, but any action on one’s own part would be a ‘work’ and take away from the power of Jesus.
Timothy wrote:
This reminds me of being in Christian life studies class back in school. The teacher told the whole class to close their eyes and said "if you want to be a christian all you have to do is put your hand up now."
I doubt that was all the teacher said. I suspect there was an explanation of the Gospel followed by the invitation to raise hands. If not then your teacher was not presenting the Gospel and the raising of one’s hand under those circumstances was of dubious value.
Timothy wrote:
- I thought that in order to fully accept christ into your heart you must also follow the law of the bible. Did'nt Jesus state that he did not come to destroy the law? Matheew 5:17?
No, you should want to behave more and more like Jesus but if you could obey the law Jesus would not have been necessary. We will discuss Matthew in our Bible reading and discussion forum.
Timothy wrote:
So you believe that through Jesus sacrifice the laws are no longer used? Could you please explain to me how this abolished the laws, I am a little lost :s.
The law judges, Jesus saves. You can’t live without breaking the law, at some point, in some fashion. The law is still there but a Christian is not judged by it. That does not mean one can live like the devil. Once you are a Christian your desire is to please Jesus by trying to live a life like His.
Timothy wrote:
- I have seen quite a few christians reconcile their immoral behavior by saying It is ok, Jesus forgives all. As long as you say sorry to Jesus it does not matter. This sort of nonsense sprouts from the belief that all you require to gain eternity in heaven is to believe in jesus and accept him.
God is not mocked. Someone who lives like that and professes to be a Christian is not showing the gifts of the spirit, which should be evidenced in their life. If a person is a Christian but one continues to wantonly sin the situation will be resolved.
-
stahrwe wrote:
Religions tell the observant what is required of them..
And what is required of them and the consquences that are a result if these requirements are not fullfilled, can in part, be seen as being fueled by fear. Judgement day seems fair scary . While I agree that fear and the tradition of passing your religion onto your children (Which I can not stand as children are indoctrinated without the capacity to question or compare.) played a big part in the wide spread acquisition. Fear, however, is not the only reason for the epidemic that is religion. You have all forgotten that for many people it is simply a beacon of hope, that allows people to find strength through hardship. I am sure hope had as much influence as fear.
As for the rapture. According to the bible man that showed up at my door today it is very soon D:![/quote]
I am posting this now, but I woll edit it later. I
_________________ “I think one of [James Hoffmeier’s] most important points is that we have unrealistic expectations for what archaeology can offer us as far as ‘proving’ Exodus: ‘After all, what evidence, short of an inscription in a Proto-Canaanite script stating “bricks made by Hebrew slaves” would be considered proof that the Israelites were in Egypt. Archaeology’s ability … is quite limited.’” Jeff Lambert, Editorial Associate, Biblical Archaeological Review. via email January 26, 2010 8:20:58 AM. [email receipiant redacted for privacy reasons. See Thread-The Bible's Buried Secrets for full text.]
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. While I agree that fear and the tradition of passing your religion onto your children (Which I can not stand as children are indoctrinated without the capacity to question or compare.) played a big part in the wide spread acquisition. Fear, however, is not the only reason for the epidemic that is religion. You have all forgotten that for many people it is simply a beacon of hope, that allows people to find strength through hardship. I am sure hope had as much influence as fear. 
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