Hocus Pocus!

missyannlala · Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Is going to be on the Hallmark Channel, this sunday night!

This is one of those movies that I HAVE to watch everytime it's on!

bleachededen · Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:09 pm

Likewise. Even though I don't agree with Disney's portrayal of witches, I still love that movie.

missyannlala · Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:26 pm

Would you mind explaining your idea of witches? I'm always interested in other peoples ideas/views.

Eyebrowse · Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:22 pm

May I interject ?

I've not watched the film but it looks like lots of good fun if your a girl or you like diney films. Witches to my mind are people who know about nature and can cure various ailments through the use of plants and other compounds that posess a wide variety of medicinal properties. They were usually also very wise people (not always women I might add) who you could go to for advice. So I've no doubt people traditionally would go to see a person who had a reputation of being a witch for advice on problems like unrequited love, bad harvests etc. Their counterparts in other cultures would be the shaman.

The powers that be wouldn't like this too well as this would undermine their own authority and so it would suit them to paint witchcraft or Wicca as an evil practice and so give themselves a good excuse for the murder of such people. Such people would be rearguarded as dangerous and potential troublemakers I would guess, especially to the church.

Old religions now packaged as New Age Religions seem to be making something of a comeback and there are people who openly use the title of witch these days without fear of reprimand. Respect for all religions that we try and live by now. Places like Stonehenge have their share of them and the wicca image fits very nicely with that place and the tourist industry that revolves around that area.

I was reading in a newspaper a couple of years back now that a sailor who claims he is a devil worshipper was having some sort of argument with the orificers of the Royal Navy about his religion and they had to back down because of this tendency to respect all religious views. Personally I didn't agree as the head of the navy ultimately is the Queen of England and his religious practices are not in keeping with the Church of England so if he didn't like it he should have shoved off and joined the the Devil Worshippers canoe club. Lol.

I've long been interested in the use of plants for medicinal purposes but mainly from a survival point of view. I've learned a bit from watching Ray Mears on BBC Tv.

bleachededen · Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:26 pm

Well, there are no witches, at least not the way Hocus Pocus or the Pilgrims made them out to look. They don't ride broomsticks or eat children or turn people into toads. Most of the women accused of being "witches" were innocent young women who either thought for themselves or had pissed off some member of a community. Every person burned during the Salem witch trials was accused by someone with some agenda against her (i.e. some accounts were that the young daughters of rich upstanding members of the community didn't like their nannies and pretended to be choking or flailing about wildly claiming to be under an evil spell) and given no fair trial (not being able to swim and thus drowning may prove your innocence, but it isn't a fair trial if you die as a means of obtaining a verdict). No evidence of the practice of witchcraft was ever found: no cauldrons (other than the one for soup like everyone had), no extra brooms, maybe a black cat but that hardly condemns a witch, no pacts with Satan, etc.

Joan of Arc was burned as a witch because a British lord had his pride hurt during the Hundred Years War when Orleans fell to the French with Joan's help. She was a devout Christian who claimed to hear the voice of God and this convinced Prince Charles to let her fight for him and then let her be caught by the English when he had no further need for her, and even the priests presiding over her trial were too scared to convict her because they believed that God was with her, but she was turned over to England and away from the church and burned anyway, guilty only of aiding her country. If she had been a man, it would never have happened. (This is clearly a simplified version of the story, I'm actually quite enamored of Joan of Arc and could talk about her more in another context.)

Some people practice "witchcraft" now, but it is mostly built on unfavorable stereotypes (like cauldrons and animal familiars), homeopathic medicine (such as the use of herbs and oils and the like) mixed with a jumble of various Pagan traditions and yields little more than nice smelling candles and incense and time for meditation.

I personally find the idea of witches offensive because the idea of "witchcraft" and "witches" was a cause to murder many innocent women for anything from knowing how to read and write to not wanting to sleep with a drunken, pedophiliac Duke or other powerful (or not) male. History has still not let go of its medieval beliefs and still views independent, intelligent women as something to be feared and hated, so even though Hocus Pocus is a beloved movie from my childhood, I am torn when I watch it now because of its innacuracy and the injustice that that view of witches does to the innocent women who were murdered because of a similar accusation.

bleachededen · Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:29 pm

I would recommend reading The Crucible or watching any of the numerous film versions about Joan of Arc. That may give you a better idea of what was really going on when people talked of witches and will illustrate my unfavorable view of Disney's portrayal of witches.

Eyebrowse · Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:07 pm

I wasn't aware of all this chicanery going on amongst dirty old dukes and young ladies etc but i'll take your word for it as you seem to have a more serious interest in it than me. Joan of Arc ? Well now most men would admire her than dislike her for her fighting ability I would say. But i'm no feminist so I hardly know anything about her life or it's consequences.

Is Wicca practice based on homeopathic principles ? I had no idea

I thought Wicca ?

"At its core, homeopathy is a method of treating diseases and medical conditions invented by the German physician Samuel Hahnemann (1755�1843) in the late 18th and early 19th centuries and significantly refined as well as popularized by the American James Tyler Kent, M.D"

Whereas Witchcraft has been getting along famously without homeopathy for eonks and eonks Lol.

I've been meaning to try this for eonks "Hawthorn Jelly" you take the red hawthorn berries and pulp them then push through a sieve. To seperate the seed which contain cyanide and you don't want to eat those. Throw seeds away and spread jelly out on a tray and dry in the sun or in a very low oven until it becomes hard like candy. Now that's what I call magic, free sweeties from a tree.

bleachededen · Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:10 am


	Eyebrowse wrote: I've been meaning to try this for eonks "Hawthorn Jelly" you take the red hawthorn berries and pulp them then push through a sieve. To seperate the seed which contain cyanide and you don't want to eat those. Throw seeds away and spread jelly out on a tray and dry in the sun or in a very low oven until it becomes hard like candy. Now that's what I call magic, free sweeties from a tree.

That last bit gave me a good smile.

I'm generalizing when I speak of modern witchcraft and homeopathy together. Modern witchcraft doesn't use homeopathic remedies as laid down in strict principles, and homeopathy on its own is not considered witchcraft, but witchcraft in any form does offer herbal infusions and whatnot that are used in "spells." Wicca is technically its own religion, but it is mainly based in godess culture and draws from many different Pagan religions for its rules and practices, and varies from "witch" to "witch." I never followed Wicca because it was too similar to any other organized religion which doesn't suit me.

I have dabbled in witchcraft (not Wicca), but mostly have used "spell candles" (candles infused with specific herbs and oils that are said to have specific properties that can be channeled to increase energies for one sort of goal or another, i.e. a candle infused with herbs and oils that are said to contain properties to enhance a "love spell") and incense mixed with my own prayers and certain Hebrew prayers that I grew up with and found particularly moving. For me it is mostly a form of focused meditation to channel my energy into the desired goal. If nothing else it is a way to relax and gain awareness of myself. You can see how it's not an easy thing to define, as each other self-proclaimed witch or warlock will have different personal beliefs and practices.

As for Joan of Arc, she was a fascinating historical figure and her story is moving and tragic. She was found guilty of heresy and burned as a witch, but later retried (posthumously) and found innocent, beatified and then canonized as a saint 500 years later. As I said, there are many film versions of her story, my favorite of which is The Messenger: The Story of Joan of Arc, directed by Luc Besson and starring Milla Jovovich and John Malkovich, among others. Her trial was also documented (although heavily edited in her disfavor) and I have a copy of it from my dad that I have been meaning to read.

In high school I was once made fun of for speaking out and saying that Joan of Arc was one of my heroes. To this day that haunts me, and I still don't understand why that was something they would laugh about. But all that did was make my admiration of her stronger, as I feel I can relate to her, being an outcast myself. She was a great warrior, a great Christian, and a great woman. If I were ever to have a personal saint, I would have to choose St. Joan.

missyannlala · Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:43 pm

I agree with bleachededen about the witch/witchcraft scene. I have read The Crucible, and I know the histories about hanging women because they were selfish or seemed to control things too well.

it's all a big game of who's more powerful over who.

It's unfair.

Eyebrowse · Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:24 am

Of course it's unfair I wasn't arguing that it wasn't.

bleachededen · Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:57 pm


	Eyebrowse wrote: Of course it's unfair I wasn't arguing that it wasn't.

I don't think that was directed at you, Eyebrowse. I think she meant it was generally unfair. Which it is, of course, but certainly not your fault.

MidnightCoder · Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:36 pm

I'd just like to toss in that likening homeopathy to traditional herbal medicine is a mistake. The two have about as much in common as phrenology and neurology do, which is approximately none.

Wicca may be a repackaging of older beliefs, but even the term Pagan is one that's been branded by the Church. Calling themselves witches in this day and age is (to me) more like the way blacks (wait, I can't say that anymore now either can I? African Americans then) call each other niggers as a way of destigmatizing the derogation.

And yeah, Wicca does have absolutely nothing to do with the disney-esque depictions of witches, which itself is just a repackaging of the old Christian hate for those that wouldn't be converted. Even if the collection of beliefs practiced today is fragmented and pasted back together due to massive losses of "true" ancient practices, it's still a lot deeper than pretty candles and sweet smelling incense - for those who pursue it anyway.

bleachededen · Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:00 pm


	MidnightCoder wrote: I'd just like to toss in that likening homeopathy to traditional herbal medicine is a mistake. The two have about as much in common as phrenology and neurology do, which is approximately none. Wicca may be a repackaging of older beliefs, but even the term Pagan is one that's been branded by the Church. Calling themselves witches in this day and age is (to me) more like the way blacks (wait, I can't say that anymore now either can I? African Americans then) call each other niggers as a way of destigmatizing the derogation. And yeah, Wicca does have absolutely nothing to do with the disney-esque depictions of witches, which itself is just a repackaging of the old Christian hate for those that wouldn't be converted. Even if the collection of beliefs practiced today is fragmented and pasted back together due to massive losses of "true" ancient practices, it's still a lot deeper than pretty candles and sweet smelling incense - for those who pursue it anyway.

I don't disagree on any point. It was my mistake to include homeopathy in with modern witchcraft and Wicca when I meant medieval and even earlier herbal concoctions instead. I also agree that to those who call themselves Wiccans or Pagans or even "witches," there is more to it than incense and candles and poetry meant to be taken as a "spell." I was only explaining what I have done on my own that was based in the early traditions of witchcraft. I don't follow any set rites or ideologies but take what I like from each and incorporate them into my own life. That was all I meant to put across, not that that is all there is.

Sorry if anyone misunderstood.

MidnightCoder · Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:21 pm


	bleachededen wrote: I don't follow any set rites or ideologies but take what I like from each and incorporate them into my own life.

I think this is the best way to go about it. For a long time I practiced what you could call a modern repackaging of Druidism, along with cherry picked aspects of Wicca, Native North American beliefs, and several other obscure religions. It worked, for me, for awhile. The deeper into it I got, the more I realized just how firmly entrenched the old beliefs were in their various fairy tale gods and goddesses. The realization that there simply wasn't a popular belief system, past or present, which was compatible with my own ideologies and didn't require belief in supernatural entities is what finally caused me to resign myself to pure atheism. I searched long and hard, many religions, but the one thing I never found was one shred of tangible evidence to support any of them. Eventually I just gave up.

Anyway, I'm rambling here, but I wanted to say that there is nothing wrong with cherry picking your beliefs from multiple sources, as long as you're honest with yourself in the process. It makes a lot more sense to do this than to embrace any one religion in its entirety when it clashes with your ideals, common sense, or core beliefs.

Btw, I wasn't offended in the least when I posted earlier. Just trying to correct a couple factual things, sorry if i sounded like a smart ass in the process.

bleachededen · Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:25 pm


	MidnightCoder wrote: Btw, I wasn't offended in the least when I posted earlier. Just trying to correct a couple factual things, sorry if i sounded like a smart ass in the process.

No worries.

I'm glad to hear your opinions, and you do an excellent job with the technical stuff (off topic, I know, but what can you do?).

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