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Suicide-the ultimate taboo.

#78: Jan. - Feb. 2010 (Fiction)
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Jlane5516
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Suicide-the ultimate taboo.

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It is stated that suicide looks worse upon a house than murder. Why is this? Why is suicide the ultimate evil on Winter?
"The constant questioning of our values and achievements is a challenge with which neither science nor society can remain healthy. "
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Re: Suicide-the ultimate taboo.

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I have been thinking about this, especially because it bears heavily on the ending. In a Tolkien book discussion I was once in, someone pointed out that suicide is a grievous sin in Catholicism, because it amounts to capitulation to despair. No matter how bad things appear, one should maintain the hope that there is something better ahead -- this is the promise that God made to mankind. To kill yourself is to reject that hope, and therefore to reject God. (I hope I'm reconstructing these views adequately.) So how would that apply to Gethen? There are only hints of God, though, as someone pointed out, tons of references to religion, or perhaps mysticism. But I'm not sure I see where hopelessness or despair come into the Gethenian world view. In fact, theirs seems to be a tremendously intellectual mysticism -- unlearning and ignorance for the Handdarata, "Seeing" everything at once for the Yomeshta.

Or could it be simply because life is so precarious in their environment that it has become a crime to take it? But then murder would presumably be the worse crime, or possibly hunting. Looking forward to hearing other thoughts on this!
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Re: Suicide-the ultimate taboo.

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I'm not certain where to go with an answer to this, but I would like to suggest that, being that Gethenians are both male and female, killing oneself removes the double possibility of reproduction (of literally carrying the child in a pregnancy in the female role or impregnating, in the male role). Voluntarily removing yourself from this cycle implies you are willing to wipe out all your possibilities of increasing the population.
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Re: Suicide-the ultimate taboo.

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It may have something to do with forgiveness. When someone commits suicide, it deprives others from forgiving those persons sins, or misdeeds. Since there is no true deity that the people on Winter worship and pray to for forgiveness and guidance, the people themselves take on the traditional roles of a god, and suicide becomes a sin or crime against the people.

This leads me to another question. When two people vow kemmering, and one of those people dies, or leaves, the one left can never vow kemmering again. This reminds me of marriage in the catholic church, even though you can be divorced legally, the church still sees this marriage as valid until an annulment occurs. It also reminds me of certain animals that mate for life, such as morning doves. Kemmering/marriage vows are for life, but, are these vows similar to a religious belief that marriage is for life, or are the people considered more like animals?
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Re: Suicide-the ultimate taboo.

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Very true, Suzanne. I didn't think about the forgiveness issue.
Another thing that has been busying me about this book is the concept of flying......no creature flies on Gethen. Floating, as in snowflakes falling, yes. But no birds, no idea of humans flying.
Gods and spirits are parasitic--Pascal Boyer

Religion is the only force in the world that lets a person have his prejudice or hatred and feel good about it --S C Hitchcock

Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. --André Gide

Reading is a majority skill but a minority art. --Julian Barnes
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Re: Suicide-the ultimate taboo.

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oblivion wrote:no creature flies on Gethen. Floating, as in snowflakes falling, yes. But no birds, no idea of humans flying.
I noticed the lack of birds too, maybe the birds migrated. You bring up an interesting issue, the lack of human flight. The citizens of Gethen have evolved and have mastered their environment, they do not need to leave. This is simular to the robins in my area (NJ, three weeks ago we had 20 inches of snow fall) that when I was little always migrated, they stay year round now, they have assimulated to the enviornment. But you are correct, without an image of a flying creature, humans would never entertain the thought of recreating flight. But you must ask yourself, do the people of Gethen want to leave? Do they want to change? Is change always for the good?

There are also no large animals. They do have small animals, and when Estraven kills one to eat, Ai mentions that he has never seen blood on the hands of the people of Winter, there is little hunting going on. Estraven also seems to be repulsed at the thought of eating meat. These small animals are used for the pelts to keep them warm, not for food. Now that I think about it, I can not recall any food that contains animal meat. Are the people of Winter vegetarians? And if so, are they vegetarians by choice? If this is true, why?

The lack of large animals would suggest to me that the enviornment has changed to the point where these animals have gone extinct. Today, the polar bears are at risk with the melting of the ice caps, global warming or not.

I must admit, whenever I read a first person narration the first thing I must determine is whether or not I believe what that person has to say. (Thank Nobokov for that) Ai talks big about light year travel, but I have asked myself about the character of Ai, and I must say, I don't know if I believe him. Remember, early explorers traveled many months, if not years, to reach land inhabited by people who were guilable. Exployers on Easter Island for example looked like aliens to the inhabitants, and those exployers traveled what may appear as "light years" in regard to difficulty reaching land. If indeed the birds migrated, the planets are not as far away as Ai makes them appear. However, simular to the inhabitants of Easter Island, the citizens of Winter are told that there are other civilizations that are more advanced. This is also simular to missionary work, this is how I view Ai. He is a missionary, convinced that his way of life is better.

Through out time, through out the world, culture, and civilization has been destroyed due to missionaries believing their beliefs were best. Is Ai nothing more than a missionary, believing he is superior? Of course, he falls in love with Estraven and realizes the value of the citizens of Winter.

What I found interesting is that Estraven choose suicide over connecting with the other worlds. In the end, Estraven choose the lifesyle of Gethen instead of flying out with Ai into another world.
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Re: Suicide-the ultimate taboo.

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There is some quote in the book (which, of course, I can't find at the moment) stating that there are no winged creatures in Gethen. BTW, how in the world is the growing season long enough to grow so many vegetables, if that is indeed what they are mostly eating (as it appears they are).....breadapple, for instance?
Yes, the narration is difficult. First person narration Ai, first person narration Estreven, creation myths (what era), backflashes, etc. I have the feeling le Guin is trying to present the reader a dimension of neither space nor time using this style in order to support her plot of time travel,-- which time is Ai especially-- in, where are they, are they male or female.....perhaps that is the purpose of Winter, of whiteness, as well. The contours disappear. You have to concentrate on the essence of things, of humans, if you are not certain of time, of where you are (blizzard, etc), of whom you are with (male, female? friend, enemy?).
I like to think that le Guin's style supports the story here. The protagonists are in a world without outline, even poor Ai has no idea really just how long he has been somewhere, whether his family has already died. The narration, the backflashes, the style of narration (inc. journal entries) all serve to move circularly, not linearly.The concept of time has effectively been essentially removed. And so has Place. What world does Ai (I'll just continue using him as an example) really belong to? Only the ansible seems to bridge time and distance, but it does not survive the journey. The whiteness, snow-blindness, fog, etc rub away the outline of Place. What is left of this world is shifgrethor holding it together, of recognizing neither male nor female but human.
Amazing book, this one.
Gods and spirits are parasitic--Pascal Boyer

Religion is the only force in the world that lets a person have his prejudice or hatred and feel good about it --S C Hitchcock

Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. --André Gide

Reading is a majority skill but a minority art. --Julian Barnes
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Re: Suicide-the ultimate taboo.

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Yes it is amazing, isn't it?

I think the author shifts around in narration in order to keep us off balance, a bit like Faulkner. We are constantly having to adjust to a different point of view, assimilate another facet in order to piece together the wholeness -- and this is exactly Ai's situation too.

In the first chapter Ai thinks he has a pretty good idea what is going on. He sees Estraven as sneaky and deceptive, proved by his sudden withdrawal of support. (Truth: Estraven is reacting to Tibe's rise and trying to protect Ai.). He assumes E. is shifty and calculating, moving the pieces around on his mental chessboard. (Truth: E. is trying to express himself without being rude to Ai.) Ai knows a lot about Gethen already; he has read all sorts of cultural reports, myths, fables, he can tell is the history of the Corner Red Dwelling; but he does not understand the basis of all human interaction on Gethen, that to give advice is a tremendous insult. E scrupulously avoids doing so ("I am not trying to tell you anything, Mr. Ai.") out of respect for Ai; Ai interprets it all through his own lens, sees E. as an utterly unscrupulous politician.

This misreading of cultural clues is a central feature of the alienation of the foreigner, isn't it? It's a theme Le Guin visits in many of her early novels -- The Dispossessed, Rocannon's World, Planet of Exile. Perhaps informed by her time in France? At any rate, Ai slowly begins to realize that all his knowledge is still not giving him a complete picture. By the end, he is no longer the alien -- his co-travelers on the ship appear alien to him. And the narrative structure settles down in parallel; the last quarter of the book is only in Ai's voice. He is less disoriented, the reader too.

Regarding Estraven's death: did he really have a choice? If he had stayed in Karhide, Tibe's men would have hunted him down and killed him. In Orogoreyn the situation would have been the same, just uglier. With no papers, as Ai finally realizes, too late, E. would face jail at first, probably a trip to a Farm (which he would not survive in his weakened state), and, when the Commensals discovered him, murder. He had, after all, engineered a massive loss of shifgrethor for them by arranging for the star ship to land in Karhide. So certain death no matter what. I think he chose the quickest path to what was inevitable.

After E's death, the doctor is appalled at Ai's suggestion that Estraven chose his death, and Ai remembers that to Karhiders at least, suicide is not an option, but "the abdication from option", an "act that, sealing despair denies the chance of forgiveness, change, life". It seems odd that someone who moved so elegantly through Gethen societies, was so utterly attuned to the finest hints and shifts, would do something so utterly vile in the eyes of his society. Did he sacrifice himself for Ai's mission? Or did he also become an alien on the ice?
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Re: Suicide-the ultimate taboo.

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I tend to think that Estreven's suicide was the ultimate act of love--he "botched" it with his kemmering and now given the second chance with Ai, decided to give all.
As yes, cultural clues certainly aren't always easy to read!
Gods and spirits are parasitic--Pascal Boyer

Religion is the only force in the world that lets a person have his prejudice or hatred and feel good about it --S C Hitchcock

Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. --André Gide

Reading is a majority skill but a minority art. --Julian Barnes
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