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Art, Religion and Philosophy - Plato's Perspective
Plato's Apology is perhaps the best introductory text to political philosophy available. Plato presents Socrates defending the utility of philosophy for public life, arguing that the relation of political philosophy is intrinsically important to the ordering of a future utopian city/state. However the very idea of philosophy is being put on trial, accused of treason Socrates is defending himself and, in a practical sense, his ideas about political philosophy.
The necessary and inevitable conflict between the freedom of the mind and political life poses the question concerning if they compatible or at odds?
The charges against Socrates were in response to his criticism of ancient literary tradition serving the deities of the Grecian canon. Plato’s criticisms debase the underlaying truths of Greek society which poetically attributed moral behaviour to the gods which was normally scorned. The essential quarrel between philosophy and poetry is presented in Socrates philosophical challenging of religion as poetic expression.
Socrates seems to suggest that we should not allow poets into an ideal society as they encourage corruption. However near the end of the Republic he admits that he did not wholly mean what he was saying, rather that he was posing questions while writing with irony as an artistic philosopher.
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Re: Art, Religion and Philosophy - Plato's Perspective
Grim wrote:
Plato's Apology is perhaps the best introductory text to political philosophy available. Plato presents Socrates defending the utility of philosophy for public life, arguing that the relation of political philosophy is intrinsically important to the ordering of a future utopian city/state. However the very idea of philosophy is being put on trial, accused of treason Socrates is defending himself and, in a practical sense, his ideas about political philosophy.
The necessary and inevitable conflict between the freedom of the mind and political life poses the question concerning if they compatible or at odds?
The charges against Socrates were in response to his criticism of ancient literary tradition serving the deities of the Grecian canon. Plato’s criticisms debase the underlaying truths of Greek society which poetically attributed moral behaviour to the gods which was normally scorned. The essential quarrel between philosophy and poetry is presented in Socrates philosophical challenging of religion as poetic expression.
Socrates seems to suggest that we should not allow poets into an ideal society as they encourage corruption. However near the end of the Republic he admits that he did not wholly mean what he was saying, rather that he was posing questions while writing with irony as an artistic philosopher.
Hi Grim. One of the exciting things about Plato is that he seeks to define logical connections between ordinary life and ultimate questions. In my view, among the best and most succinct explanations he gives is in the Timaeus, where he defines the relation between belief and knowledge as involving the relation between change and permanence, or between the 'realm of difference' and the 'realm of identity', conventionally translated as the realms of the diverse and the same. His point is that the fixed stars remain the same, while the world changes. Hence, understanding change against permanence provides a foundation for philosophy.
Here is my response to a claim that the Platonic Year is different from the Great Year:
Quote:
Calling the Great Year the Platonic Year is not an "idiotic fantasy" but a widely used convention. Your "idiotic" comment is stupid and churlish, rather like those whom King Canute said were trying to stop the tide. The fact that Plato's theoretical Perfect Year is not the earth's spin cycle is not relevant to the current usage of Platonic Year to describe this empirical cycle, as the following comment from an astronomer (not an astrologer) readily shows. A response from Cornell University Astronomy Department says "Though some of Plato's ideas concerning the solar system are now known to be incorrect, the Earth does complete one long cycle on timescales comparable to the (non-existent) Perfect Year. Because of the precession of the Earth's spin, the direction along which the Earth's axis of rotation is aligned drifts among the stars, completing one round in about thirty thousand years. This cycle has been named the Platonic year in honor of Plato's revolutionary ideas." This identity between the Great Year and the Platonic Year is a wide conventional usage, as a quick google of Platonic Year will show. Did you change wikipedia's mention of this after I pointed out that it identified the Great Year and the Platonic Year? Of course we all know of Plato's planetary alignment theory. However, on this score Plato was trying to recover the fragments of lost ancient wisdom which understood that precession is a main marker of terrestrial time. I'm not sure how pointing out Plato's error makes me a Napoleon, as you suggested, but I do worry for your health in making such strange comments. The Greeks were a barbarian fringe tribe by comparison to the great ancient civilisations of India, Egypt and Babylon. As Plato says in Timaeus, the Greeks sought to learn at the knee of the scribes of Thoth. Your idolising of the Greeks limits your understanding. There is a very nice comment in Timaeus about the relation between the 'circle of the diverse' meaning the solar system, and the 'circle of the same' meaning what we now know as the the galaxy, as the criteria of distinction between belief and knowledge. "when reason, which works with equal truth, whether she be in the circle of the diverse or of the same - in voiceless silence holding her onward course in the sphere of the self-moved - when reason, I say, is hovering around the sensible world and when the circle of the diverse also moving truly imparts the intimations of sense to the whole soul, then arise opinions and beliefs sure and certain. But when reason is concerned with the rational, and the circle of the same moving smoothly declares it, then intelligence and knowledge are necessarily perfected." We now know the 'circle of the same' precesses once per ~25765 years, and so rightly honour Plato by naming this cycle after him.
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Re: Art, Religion and Philosophy - Plato's Perspective
No, The Republic is a exposition of what Plato thought of as the utopian state. He thought to reflect the human soul to its highest potential involved taking care of which subject and style of arts and surroundings flooded your psyche. It was thought that the city/state should be modelled around this particular idea of utopianism.
Asking what is the psychological effects of the environment on the individual is wading into a huge controversy. All resulting opinions suggest significant philosophical implications, and would undoubtably reinforce a particular world-view. Logic would serve to devise persuasive thought experiments, with grim although logically sound outcomes.
It seemed obvious to Plato that whenever poetry portrays the gods as committing immoral acts that poetry will also corrupt a human character. Therefore the state should censor poetry that is harmful to the human character! Empirically we must wonder whether it is an issue under investigation strictly as an emergent consequence of the new society or if certain types of violence acceptable to the powerful precluded any particular political theory. High noon for any revolution is when it must decide what to do with the opposing men it has captured.
Last edited by Grim on Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Art, Religion and Philosophy - Plato's Perspective
Grim wrote:
No, The Republic is a exposition of what Plato thought of as the utopian state. He thought to reflect the human soul to its highest potential involved taking care of which subject and style of arts and surroundings flooded your psyche. It was thought that the city/state should be modelled around this particular idea of utopianism.
My point was that Plato's utopian vision was framed by the study of time and eternity. Hence, the solar system in the Timaeus is the symbol of time, while the galaxy is the symbol of eternity. This schema is basically compatible with modern physics, considering eternity as absence of change in human time scales.
Quote:
Asking what is the psychological effects of the environment on the individual is wading into a huge controversy. All resulting opinions suggest significant philosophical implications, and would undoubtably reinforce a particular world-view. Logic would serve to devise thought provoking paradoxes, with grim although logically sound outcomes.
Yes, this is a perceptive analysis of the relation between environment and thought. Obviously, thought that is attuned to its environment has to come into dialogue with other forms of thought that are not attuned to their environments. I'm not sure though why this would produce paradox, except of the Christian form such as 'the last shall be first' and 'the meek shall inherit the earth'.
Quote:
It seemed obvious to Plato that whenever poetry portrays the gods as committing immoral acts that poetry tends to corrupt their essential human character. Therefore the state should censor poetry that is harmful to the human character? Empirically we must wonder whether it is an issue under investigation as an emergent consequence of the new society or if certain types of violence acceptable to the powerful precluded any particular political theory. High noon for any revolution is when it must decide what to do with the opposing men it has captured.
For Plato, I suspect poetry had similar cultural status as advertising has in the modern world. I would have to go back to his comments further to check, but I imagine that Plato saw poets as liars and deceivers, holders of the torch in the cave. Modern poetry is of course very different in its cultural niche. I don't think Plato's agenda was about freedom of cultural expression, but rather a desire to limit harmful consequences of harmful language. The moral question of what language is harmful is a core dilemma of ethics.
The following user would like to thank Robert Tulip for this post: Grim
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Re: Art, Religion and Philosophy - Plato's Perspective
We do in fact censor primetime television, a wise parent is seen as one taking care to control what a child is exposed to. No concern for freedom at the understandable right of the parent. Socrates was also censored, told that he had corrupted the youth with his teachings - that he had been unduly critical of the religious establishment.
A "medium" is successful to the extent that it is able to mirror reality, the manner of the portrayal in the forming of the content has a lot to do with the ethical impact of the content. In Plato's time content was poetic, meaning that the ethical impacts were religious! To be learned and unpoetic was treason. One could not be critical of the gods nor teach others to do the same - a jury of his peers thought the same with viciously romantic blind acceptance.
Are we more programmed by the media or flooded under it?
On the one hand there are artistic presentations, designed to impress us emotionally by conveying the emotion; however there are also arts with intellectual properties. Scientists have made good painters, Da Vinci saw cooperation between science and art. His interest to understand very well the dynamics of his subjects which do not just inflame the emotions but convey an understanding of the physical structure of that figure. Knowledge was required for expression, to know was to be given right to think. To paint one had to have insight where the essence of the subject could fit the message of scientific progress. "Plato believed that we learn in this life by remembering knowledge originally acquired in a previous life, and that the soul already has all knowledge, and we learn by recollecting what in fact the soul already knows." By looking inward we are better able to advance biologically, socially, culturally, spiritually by utilizing innate an experience potential conferred through our human souls. Or more recently using world wide internet cables.
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