Re: thought we could have a valid discussion
Thank you for the clarification of your position. I'm going to give a summary of my position so that I'm as clear as possible.
I don't think it is possible for a theist to be a freethinker. In a nutshell, and in
my opinion, the theist that claims to be a freethinker, is not really using reason and is actually accepting religious dogma in the formation of their belief. In my opinion the belief in a God is so far removed from reason, that I cannot accept the claim that it was arrived at through the use of reason. Reason doesn't lead to theism; it confirms the default position, which is atheism.
This is
my position and not necessarily that of all atheists. Just because a theist claims they formed their beliefs based on thinking deeply doesn't mean they actually did think deeply. Or at least, to me, their thinking was irrational. Either their conclusion was based on faulty evidence, no evidence, or lack of an education, or they didn't think through the situation clearly. I just cannot accept that people believe in a God after looking at the problem with an open and rational mind. NOTHING points towards a God.
Recently I heard a comedian on XM Radio say something that really made me think...and laugh. I actually wrote his name down while driving as his words had such an impact on me. Doug Stanhope was his name, and he said that the only reason why people believe in the Bible is because it was jammed into their heads when they were kids. If an adult, who was never exposed to Christianity, were to walk into a bookstore and pick up the Bible for the first time, and read it through, they would NEVER believe such nonsense. They would think, more than likely, that the story was poorly written and obviously a work of fiction.
But millions of people are walking around today thinking that entire book is factual, simply because they are accepting religious dogma, not thinking freely, and don't even know the difference between the two.
So you might be the exception. Only time will tell. As I stated earlier, I cannot fathom how anyone could argue that reason has led him or her to God. So this will be your challenge. Show me how you thought
freely, and didn't base your belief system on antiquated books and stories first introduced as a child, and came to the conclusion that the evidence warrants the belief in a deity.
And even if you aren't a Christian you still have the same challenge. Show me how your beliefs are derived from reason and not from what charlatans have introduced to you. Show me how your belief isn't a product of physiological phenomenon, which neurologists can readily explain as common events. Please.... show me something.
As usual, the discussion winds down to the atheist demanding the theist demonstrate the validity of their belief. Why is this? Why hasn't the theist ever been able to defend their position and end the debate? I argue that the reason is simple. There is no evidence for a god of ANY sort, and only those that do not think freely fall for the myth.
Is this a personal insult? It sure isn't meant to be. This I promise. If you can show me how you've thought this subject out and have arrived at a different conclusion than me, all the while using the same tool as I used, reason, then please do. But I don't think you or anyone, even the Pope, could ever make a reasonable argument. To me, belief in God is ONLY a product of poor reasoning.
ChrisEdited to add a note:
Please know that we all have different communication styles. Any personal attacks by me or Nick or anyone on this thread are not acceptable and not intended. Give us some leeway as this is a difficult subject that stirs the emotions. I think we all need to be respectful, yet also tolerant of people when they get a bit excited.
Chris
Edited by: Chris OConnor 
at: 1/8/05 2:44 pm
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