RT
I know you view the Gospels with extreme skepticism, but the range of Satanic references during the life of Jesus include the temptation in the wilderness, the entry of Satan into Judas, and the condemnation of Peter for rejecting the path of the cross (Matt 16:23).

RT
In fact, the first Christian millennium was a time of the domination of belief around the world, as the major cultures of Europe, Asia and America were in isolation from each other and wrongly believed the universe revolved around them. Europe also made progress during the dark ages, with inventions like amour, castles and the wheelbarrow. The term “back up” was yours, and I partially accept it, while recognizing that belief as an organizing principal has both positive and negative features.

Interbane:
Thomas, the link still did not work. A monster jumped out and tried to eat my computer.

Frank 013 wrote:

any New Testament references you are quoting are far removed from that time period, and that they are copies of copies with many changes added in the interim. In the time that Jesus was supposed to have lived only the Old Testament (the Torah) had the character named Satan. In addition, there are no records of Christian writings until at least a generation after the alleged death of Jesus, and those varied greatly in their stories, dogma and rituals until Emperor Constantine ordered the orthodoxy of the religion and the other sects were “purged” some three hundred years later. Considering that, how can you reasonably claim to know anything about the original intent, writer’s ambitions or specific traits such as education? (You mentioned that Jesus in your opinion was well trained in astronomy despite the fact that there is no mention of this even in the biblical text) how do you feel justified in these claims, especially since we don’t know who wrote any of those works? Do you not see that beginning with the assumption of Jesus and continuing with each successive unsupported claim you move further and further from probable truth? Which is, by using a historical Jesus as a starting point, already on very weak footing.

Frank, as you point out, there is a massive distinction between the Christ of faith and the Jesus of history. Only the most simplistic faith assumes their unity. The range of opinion extends from belief that Jesus said all things and performed all miracles attributed to him, to acceptance of only some of the sayings and deeds, to your contention that he did not even exist. This debate is only partly relevant to present-day interpretation of the Bible. As Voltaire said of God, if Jesus did not exist it would be necessary to invent him. I personally find your idea that Jesus did not exist as implausible as the idea that man did not go to the moon. I simply cannot imagine the psychological inspiration for such a fervent mass movement resting on original fraud. Yes, historical accuracy was secondary to organisational effectiveness in the priorities of the Gospel writers, but no, this does not imply Jesus did not exist.

My discussion here, linking Christ to the gas giants, is primarily a conceptual image focussed on the universal message of the Christian Trinitarian faith, explaining this message in a way that is compatible with materialist observation, underpinning the cosmic battle described in Paradise Lost. The Zodiacal Age, 2147 years, is I argue the actual period meant in Biblical discussion of ‘the end of the age’. The gas giants are in a cycle which corresponds to one twelfth of this period, in astrological terms the House of the Age (179 years). This cycle is a primary physical structure of our solar system, shown in the wave function of the solar system centre of mass. In ancient times the Age period was estimated variously at 2000, 2160 or 3600 years. The 2160 year estimate is arguably built in to the Revelation concept of the New Jerusalem as a cube with a total of 2160 degrees. Graham Hancock argues the accurate period was known to ancient astronomy, and for example was built in to the architecture of Angkor Wat.

The Gospels were heavily edited for political purposes to improve their acceptability to a broader audience. Part of the conflict between Judaism and Paganism was over the legitimacy of star-worship, as practiced in Egypt, Chaldea and Rome. In saying God was beyond the stars, the monotheist movement, wrongly in my view, inferred that God was not also revealed in the stars, in a typical example of political conflict also extending to matters of obscure doctrine. Hence many Biblical references to the revelation of God in the cosmos are presented in code. I discussed this in my review of DH Lawrence’s book Apocalypse. The presence of these coded references indicates that someone put them there. Whether this was agreed by the historical Jesus or not is a secondary point to whether the cosmology underlying the New Testament, whoever wrote it, is coherent. The ideas of eternity and infinity are so intrinsically linked to the slow majestic movement of the heavens that it can be argued this sense of the cosmic nature of God has a deep central profundity. In Trinitarian terms, we can conceptualise God the Father as the whole universe, God the Son as the manifestation of God in our part of the cosmos (ie the structured cycle of the solar system), and God the Holy Spirit as the reverberative relation between the Father and Son manifest in our world today.

It can be convincingly argued that any point in human history (even today) has been subject to some form of false belief.

RT
As Voltaire said of God, if Jesus did not exist it would be necessary to invent him. I personally find your idea that Jesus did not exist as implausible as the idea that man did not go to the moon.

RT
I simply cannot imagine the psychological inspiration for such a fervent mass movement resting on original fraud.

RT
Yes, historical accuracy was secondary to organizational effectiveness in the priorities of the Gospel writers, but no, this does not imply Jesus did not exist.

Penelope wrote:

Interbane:
Thomas, the link still did not work. A monster jumped out and tried to eat my computer.

Oh No!! Don't tell me we will have to keep in touch by writing letters!!

Which will then go down in history....so that future generations will be able to see our fragile efforts to 'connect'.

That won't do at all...will it?

I clicked on the link and it was OK. I like Ecclesiastes! Chapter 3 - where there is that poem about old age. . .

Tom said:

Chapter 12, as I remember.

Penelope wrote:I suppose if I study that link page you gave, I would remember which quote belongs to which chapter!

Tom said:
I read somewhere that every ancient synagogue that has been excavated has contained a mosaic of the zodiac.