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Ch. 10: The Bible and Morality

#58: Dec. - Jan. 2009 (Non-Fiction)
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Interbane

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DH: "..."we are attempting to eliminate them" is like saying, "we have built our cities upon mountains of TNT, but we are trying to walk a little softer""

Except that the original motive to build the weaponry came from political tensions, the same territorial exclusive thinking that is not only fundamental to human nature, but also the root of this problem. It's a critical distinction.

What would you do to solve this problem DH? Your broad skepticism of the START treaty seems to ignore the fact that we are, in the end, human.

DH: "...making your absurd statement "we understand how these things are bad" sound as glib as it is ridiculous..."

Fine, sorry. We're all going to die horrible deaths from this technology. Everyone must drop what they're doing and flock to Washington DC to rally against nuclear technology!!! They sky is falling, the sky is falling!!! Better?

DH: "You're right, we don't need images of Jesus crucified: we need to simply look in the mirror."

That's a start, and quite a bit more truthful. Now you need to cross the bridge of no longer dwelling on our mistakes, and instead start making positive steps.
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All I can say is, if you would like me to be able to live to do the kind of support and service work I do in my daily life, you will keep the bloody crosses and exhortations to imagine how I may be lending power to the torture of others to a minimum.
I understand what you are saying gentlereader, I work in social service as well and also see a lot of suffering. It is very tricky to remain positive and take care of yourself when you do that kind of work.

I think that different people need different things. If it makes some people feel humble and inspires them to make the world better due to the fact that they see the crucifixion, I think that is not a bad thing. I also see crucifixion as a horrific thing and that does not really inspire me. But I personally see some benefit in what Dissident Heart is saying. Perhaps the Christian crucifixion can be viewed as a metaphor for all human suffering for some people.

Individual spiritual beliefs or the rejection of spirituality is so complicated because it is such an emotional topic. It can be very hard to step back and allow others their beliefs. It is something that I struggle with even outside of religion.

Yet, there is another side in which we can not allow each other to be bullies to others. Just because someone has a personal conviction does not mean that that person has a right to demand that other people believe the same thing. There is some beauty of our constant discussion of this topic in the United States. We are constantly learning how and where to set boundries with each other and how to live with each other and our different experiences and viewpoints.
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seespotrun: Perhaps the Christian crucifixion can be viewed as a metaphor for all human suffering for some people.

I think it can be a metaphor for all that suffers: the tortured existence of, well, existence ... from the obliteration of star-stuff to the consumption of food-stuff ... stuff suffers and I think the crucifixion is a way to contemplate what that means, its implications and demands upon our lives ... this is not simply a moral theory or ethical system: it is a visceral slap in the face, kick in the groin and punch in the gut ... not a pollyannish glimpse of life's difficulties ... nor a cooly objective, calmly measured and balanced analysis of sorrow ... it is the smell of imperial brutality and dictatorial abuse: malice that disappeares victims, torments communities, and wages war against civilians and innocents ... it is the bloody reminder to consider innocence ... to protect the innocent.

But the Crucifixion is not the only element of the story, thank God ... the life that led to the Cross: the agenda, teaching, organizing, activism, and movement that triggered the violence of empire and the brutality of its attending cohorts ... the life that spurred such a death ... the life of Jesus: of healing and feeding, gathering the oppressed together in solidarity and service ... challenging taboos of power, dominance, status and identity ... offering a profound, radical alternative ... again, not simply a morality to follow or an ethic to understand: but a way of life that envisioned the fundamental transformation of empire, temple, family and identity.
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DH: "I think it can be a metaphor for all that suffers: the tortured existence of, well, existence ... from the obliteration of star-stuff to the consumption of food-stuff ... stuff suffers and I think the crucifixion is a way to contemplate what that means, its implications and demands upon our lives ..."

Well, matter is neither created nor destroyed. It merely changes form, and perhaps for the better. I believe you're being a bit overdramatic in the application of your metaphor. The metaphor also seems a bit outdated. What I envision of the problems in today's world is an asian man setting himself on fire, or a terrified martyr about to kill himself and many around him for what he believes.
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Interbane: Well, matter is neither created nor destroyed. It merely changes form, and perhaps for the better.

What happens to matter matters ... your glib merely , again, much like your we understand how these things are bad , betrays either an insensitivity to how matter suffers or a dismissal of how suffering matters...

Interbane: I believe you're being a bit overdramatic in the application of your metaphor.

Drama matters because matter is dramatic: its performance is terrific and terrifying and few spaces exist where terror is not present, or on its way, or has left its trace, wounding existence...matter is wounded...wounds matter...

Interbane: The metaphor also seems a bit outdated. What I envision of the problems in today's world is an asian man setting himself on fire, or a terrified martyr about to kill himself and many around him for what he believes.

The Asian man setting himself on fire (as some did in opposition to the Vietnam War) is a powerful image: but I don't know what led to it...what kind of living led to that kind of death...what kind of movement and solidarity brought that man to such a terrible demise...and, unlike the Crucifixion, the one doing the killing was the dying man himself: whereas, it was the full force of imperial brutality that nailed bodies to crosses...likewise, the violent martyr you refer to is not the same as the tortured victim crucified by the cold machinations of empire...the one committing suicide alone and the one committing suicide murder do not convey the same meaning as the victim tortured on the cross.
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DH: "What happens to matter matters ... your glib merely , again, much like your we understand how these things are bad , betrays either an insensitivity to how matter suffers or a dismissal of how suffering matters..."

It betrays an insensitivity to how matter suffers... or rather whether matter suffers at all. Oh the agony of the decomposing foodstuffs in our bellies! Would you cry that a piece of sand is turned into glass by using heat? It's interesting to see the influence irrational beliefs have on a person... to feel sorrow for the restructuring of matter!

DH: "Drama matters because matter is dramatic: its performance is terrific and terrifying and few spaces exist where terror is not present, or on its way, or has left its trace, wounding existence...matter is wounded...wounds matter..."

Or perhaps drama doesn't matter, and the personified emotional additions only exist to help you, DH, understand your reality. Subjective only.

DH: "...the one committing suicide alone and the one committing suicide murder do not convey the same meaning as the victim tortured on the cross."

Perhaps that is the point. We are no longer in need of a message originally constructed against oppression from the Roman Empire. Powerful empires are no longer the only evil entities, there are evils of belief that are now equally powerful.
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We are no longer in need of a message originally constructed against oppression from the Roman Empire. Powerful empires are no longer the only evil entities, there are evils of belief that are now equally powerful.
There have always been beliefs that fuel oppression. Americans live in a powerful empire. We do not have the same perspective that someone from another country would have. The people who wrote the gospels were not the people in positions of power; they were people who were being oppressed. Since Americans are on the winning side of empire, we are basically in the same position as the Romans would have been then. Of course there is oppression within the country as well. Beliefs have always either been a tool for oppression or a tool for liberation. It is a constant pendulum.
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spot: "There have always been beliefs that fuel oppression."

Some fairly massive ones lasting for 2,000 years at that!
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seespotrun2008 wrote:I understand what you are saying gentlereader, I work in social service as well and also see a lot of suffering. It is very tricky to remain positive and take care of yourself when you do that kind of work.
I think that different people need different things. If it makes some people feel humble and inspires them to make the world better due to the fact that they see the crucifixion, I think that is not a bad thing. I also see crucifixion as a horrific thing and that does not really inspire me. But I personally see some benefit in what Dissident Heart is saying. Perhaps the Christian crucifixion can be viewed as a metaphor for all human suffering for some people.
Individual spiritual beliefs or the rejection of spirituality is so complicated because it is such an emotional topic. It can be very hard to step back and allow others their beliefs. It is something that I struggle with even outside of religion.
I think this is well said. Doesn't it indeed become harder to disapprove of beliefs that are improbable when they do help people manage through difficulties? I know a number of people with schizophrenia. In their cases, I heartily approve and am happy for them if religion is a support that helps them hang on. I don't have the restraint not to laugh when I hear on the radio about Mormons who baptise dead Holocaust victims. The victims have the option of refusing the baptism, the Mormons say, so the practice in not an intrusion. This is nutty. Now, if a Mormon said this to me, would I laugh or tell him it's nutty? No. Should I? I have gotten the impression from some that such statements should be challenged. Would that simply be bad manners?
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Some fairly massive ones lasting for 2,000 years at that!
Interbane, are you telling me that oppression began with Christianity? Karl Marx said that if there were 3 people left on earth 2 would work to oppress the third. I think that people have generally found some way to oppress each other.
I don't have the restraint not to laugh when I hear on the radio about Mormons who baptise dead Holocaust victims. The victims have the option of refusing the baptism, the Mormons say, so the practice in not an intrusion. This is nutty. Now, if a Mormon said this to me, would I laugh or tell him it's nutty? No. Should I? I have gotten the impression from some that such statements should be challenged. Would that simply be bad manners?
I don't know. I am of the opinion that one should live and let live unless people are being hurt. But that is where it becomes complicated. Figuring out what that means. Obviously what the Mormons were doing was incredibly offensive to Jewish people. Yet from the Mormon perspective they were doing something good. I suppose that situations like that are where people need to communicate with each other and figure things out together. And that is why zealousness can be dangerous. Because zealots very rarley listen.
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