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Frank 013 
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 Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject:
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GentleReader9
I think what you were saying is not refuted by any of that. And I don't want to refute it. Just to add my spin and see who hits the ball back in what direction. |
Nope you did not refute anything I said and it looks like you did your homework to boot.
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Robert Tulip
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:31 am Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
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| people seem now to be struggling to claim the ground of the Infinite |
What the heck does this mean? |
Hi Chris. As I see it, what this comment from GentleReader9 may mean relates to the problem of whether we are honest and rigorous in our thought. As far as we know, the universe is infinite in size, or at least much bigger than we can imagine or know, and eternal in time, possibly zooping through big bang after big bang. These observations are very discomforting to people who want a simple explanation. It is much easier for many people to accept a belief system based on authority, so they can be told what to think. This becomes a basis for security. Reliance on authority is very common among religious people who feel secure in holding beliefs which scientific evidence knows to be wrong. Belief of this sort makes God into a finite idol. By contrast, theology of the sort promoted by Bonhoeffer calls for honesty in religion, recognising the findings of science about the size and duration of the universe. This recognition is what I understand by 'claiming the ground of the infinite'. Atheists see that theists believe false ideas. As a result, atheists can form the view that believers have put up a wall between themselves and the infinite reality of the universe. So atheists think rightly that believers are intellectually dishonest. However, my comment about atheists wanting finite security was aimed, not at the estimable contributors here, but at the very common view among people of a materialistic disposition that an orientation towards infinite reality is impossible and a waste of time. This prioritisation of finite security places a belief system in the place where we should really place an honest recognition of knowledge and ignorance.
Again, drawing from my friend Mr Heidegger, he observed that many people who try to think systematically develop an ordered worldview in which they can explain everything. He argues that this effort, which he calls 'enframing' (or in German Gestell) is a way of limiting truth to what we can articulate, and ignoring the deeper unknown reality which underlies our words. An American Indian idea, the tonal and the nagual, expresses something similar, with the tonal representing what we understand and control and the nagual meaning the invisible beyond. The nagual is unknowable and infinite but it nevertheless shapes our lives. |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:46 am Post subject:
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RT
My comment about atheists wanting finite security was aimed, not at the estimable contributors here, but at the very common view among people of a materialistic disposition that an orientation towards infinite reality is impossible and a waste of time. This prioritization of finite security places a belief system in the place where we should really place an honest recognition of knowledge and ignorance. |
I find this comment rather odd to be aimed at atheist of any color, I suppose that some of us may fall into the above category, but of the many atheists that I know and have spoken with over the years I would have to say that the number rests at about 0%, and are not common at all.
The above attitude (from my perspective) seems to be more of a theist’s description of atheists but is not actually true of most atheists (at least none that I am aware of).
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:25 am Post subject:
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RT
Again, drawing from my friend Mr. Heidegger, he observed that many people who try to think systematically develop an ordered worldview in which they can explain everything. He argues that this effort, which he calls 'enframing' (or in German Gestell) is a way of limiting truth to what we can articulate, and ignoring the deeper unknown reality which underlies our words. |
Even atheists like Dawkins Hitchins and others of their caliber who seem (to theists) to be very arrogant and “certain” in their arguments are not claiming to know the boundaries of the infinite universe, neither are they claiming that there cannot be a nebulous god or some prime mover or another.
What they are saying is that there is as of yet no evidence of anything like that and that they seem at best to have a very slight chance of existing; they also state that there are many fine theories that explain the creation of the universe (based off of the evidence at hand) that do not require a god.
They are also saying that their theories are better than those of traditional religion’s because they do take into account the evidence at hand while most religions only use the evidence that supports their preconceived idea of the universe.
They do not ignore the undiscovered/unknown, but science cannot and should not give weight to the insubstantial. When and if new evidence is discovered it is added to the appropriate theory, never before.
Defining the undiscovered/unknown is pure speculation it has no place in science and is clearly not worthy to be the basis of a belief system.
Else down the line you end up looking like a flat earther.
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:59 am Post subject:
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| However, my comment about atheists wanting finite security was aimed, not at the estimable contributors here, but at the very common view among people of a materialistic disposition that an orientation towards infinite reality is impossible and a waste of time. |
I cannot recall ever meeting an atheist like this. Where did you get the idea that this is a common position held by atheists? |
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GentleReader9
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject:
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Fiddlesticks. This is the third time I have tried to answer this. The computer ate the other two. Three's the charm. 
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| The theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in The Cost of Discipleship said we should live in "the insecurity of the infinite". I think this is relevant here, in that atheism often tries to live in finite security, while theology recognises that our ground, as creative moral beings, is infinite, and that authentic response to this infinite ground of being produces an insecurity which is an essential source of creativity |
The above was where I got the “ground of the infinite” language. Dissident Heart also had been claiming an open-ended search that caused him to co-create and grow in company with his God, an object of love and devotion which remained unknowable or “impossible.” What I was trying to point out is that the atheists here also see their search for meaning to be an ongoing, open-ended, open-minded search for what is and they want to “claim the ground of the infinite,” as well, without (if I may) desecrating it by tracking in any untruths.
I think the problem is that we have two different definitions of God going on at once, or two different levels of commitment to an unknown truth that people feel comfortable with.
One "God" is a literal, material, objectively existing (or not existing) Primary Source for the Universe, described and concretely known in some book. Chris and Frank seem to mean this Fellow when they take issue with Him. No one in this string that I can see wants to claim they know That Guy or want others to accept him on their terms. (Correct the heck out of me if I’m wrong).
The other is a personal internal sense of a “Higher Power” for which a person seeks and with which one co-creates personal meaning, through which one heals, a Spirit through which one is connected to All that Is and comes to terms with life on life’s terms and with one’s fellows, antagonists or friends. A person may find the strength and willingness to undergo that search, that creative work, that healing (and even the wounding before the healing; even a death or two in order to be reborn) by means of a leap of faith that this act I am choosing could only be possible for me and inside my life if I had Help and a Kind, Loving Source, somewhere Out There. I will act as if I trust that (faith) and my life will contribute something better to the whole than if I did not do that.
Everyone here is doing something like this second thing, even if they don't label it as spiritual or choose to personify what they value or call it God. It still takes courage and it takes faith. We’re more alike than we are different. But I admit it is such a blast to argue with people, isn’t it? As long as we know we don’t mean to hurt each other over it. Dissident Heart and Robert Tulip, you would never threaten to kill people at a women's health clinic that performed abortions or deface Frank's property or call people names as a part of your spiritual practice would you? And Frank and Chris and Interbane, you know that, don't you? I would end by declaring, "Group hug!" but I know there's only so much West Coast touchy-feely woo-woo you're going to let me get away with.... |
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Interbane
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject:
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I hate trying to follow a thread after being away for a couple of days. Memes are ideas that are formulated in such a way that people inherently assimilate them in some way, and many times help pass them on. I'm not sure if that's a perfect definition, too lazy to wiki it. Chain emails have similar contagion properties.
DH: "Life is full of death and misery: sickness, disease, misery and suffering...from the womb to the tomb, we are flush with sorrow, war, disaster and terror...why love life at all? Since there is so much rotten and despicable about life: why not give up on life?"
Even though there is much misery, I don't think you should give up on life. I think you should realize that there is a possibility of utopia(or near-utopia) in our future, and one of the first steps is elimination of monotheism and other dogmas.
"Or, more appropriately, a lover of life who has to make sense of the political madness, economic injustices, familial abuses, industrial waste, culutral chauvenism, militarist violence, fundamentalist terror, consumerist gluttony....and still choosing to love justice, seek peace and work for healing....which is what I think of when I think of loving God."
Why do you love him if he allows such things to happen? That's disturbing, honestly. Explain your beliefs a little better if you would, you're coming across contradictory to me in many cases. |
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Robert Tulip
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:25 am Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
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| my comment about atheists wanting finite security was aimed, not at the estimable contributors here, but at the very common view among people of a materialistic disposition that an orientation towards infinite reality is impossible and a waste of time. |
I cannot recall ever meeting an atheist like this. Where did you get the idea that this is a common position held by atheists? |
What I am referring to is the widespread ignorant self-centred attitude promoted by popular secular culture. Is Homer Simpson an atheist? In practical terms I think of him as atheistic, given that Matt Groening mocks piety so accurately. Homer is entirely without God, or any relation to a broader truth, and this is part of the bleak humour of the Simpsons. Chris, you probably think of atheists as people who try to understand reality and who observe that popular religion has enormous logical holes. I was including in the atheist camp, perhaps unfairly, the Homer Simpsons of the world who are too stupid and ignorant to even care if God exists, and who deride the very possibility that reality can be understood. In Australia we see this self-centred practical atheism at Christmas where Jesus images and Christian carols have been banned by many shopping centres and Santa Claus is celebrated as the patron saint of capitalism. Bing Crosby has replaced John Wesley, and We Three Kings of Orient Are is tolerated only because it blesses consumerism. The mercantile mentality has an intrinsic atheism, but this is probably less obvious in the USA where hypocrisy about religion is more necessary to play to the prejudices of the shoppers. |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:33 am Post subject:
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RT
Homer is entirely without God, or any relation to a broader truth, and this is part of the bleak humor of the Simpson’s. |
So because Homer Simpson a cartoon character on TV is stupid and might be an atheist… despite the fact that he goes to church and has in many episodes attempted to speak with god… you felt it necessary to lump all atheists into a group that you call “too stupid and ignorant to even care if God exists” am I hearing this correctly?
Matt Groening might be an atheist, his shows do mock religion on a regular basis but there are many moderate yet still spiritual people who have dispensed with the shackles of religion and its dogma but still believe in a god, Mr. Groening might simply be one of those people. In either case Mr. Groening is clearly not the type of person you describe... even if some of his characters are.
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RT
The Homer Simpsons of the world who are too stupid and ignorant to even care if God exists, and who deride the very possibility that reality can be understood. |
I have found that atheists represent (on average) the more intelligent, independent, successful, and law abiding members of society… as shown by every poll taken on the matter. The atheist you describe is either non existent or rare to the extreme.
The people you describe generally believe in god… they simply have never truly thought about the issue in any depth and are devoid of knowledge on the subject because they really do not care… it has no practical use in their lives. Yet they believe that there is probably a god because someone (with some authority in their opinion) once told them so.
There are many people like that in America as well… when polled they are part of that 95% of believers.
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RT
In Australia we see this self-centered practical atheism at Christmas where Jesus images and Christian carols have been banned by many shopping centers and Santa Claus is celebrated as the patron saint of capitalism. |
Christmas has been attacked here in America as well, but it is not the atheists who have attacked it… every atheist I know loves that time of year… the Pagan (Christmas) trees and the image of Jupiter (Santa) giving presents to children…
It is in fact the many competing religions that have made the attack, wanting equal representation on company windows and floor displays. Some shop owners just do not put anything up rather than have to pander to religious views that they do not agree with.
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Robert Tulip
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject:
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| Frank 013 wrote: |
So because Homer Simpson a cartoon character on TV is stupid and might be an atheist… despite the fact that he goes to church and has in many episodes attempted to speak with god… you felt it necessary to lump all atheists into a group that you call “too stupid and ignorant to even care if God exists” am I hearing this correctly?
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Frank, you misunderstand what I was saying. I respect atheists who try to understand reality and am not trying to lump all atheists together. The question was about the group of people who focus on finite security and ignore anything outside their cocoon. Homer Simpson's church going is a hypocritical social obligation. In his prayers he says if he doesn't hear directly from God he will take that as concurrence with his wishes. He believes in nothing, and is presented as a symbol of the many 'believers' who do not really believe. Homer does after all have a mythic resonance. This group are as often religious as irreligious, but share a disdain for the theistic idea that an ultimate reality can impinge on our lives. |
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Interbane
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject:
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RT: "In his prayers he says if he doesn't hear directly from God he will take that as concurrence with his wishes."
What is wrong with that?
"He believes in nothing..."
Says who? |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject:
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RT
The question was about the group of people who focus on finite security and ignore anything outside their cocoon. |
This is funny… normally the Christians are eager to claim these people as faithful… after all they need numbers to show just how popular their religion is…
Take DH’s claim that in order to affect environmental change churches must be involved to reach the masses, that are, by a vast majority, believers. Now you are saying that a large group of these people (very common according to your earlier post) are not truly believers even if they say that they are?
There seems to be a double standard here… when religious people debating here need these barely religious people to show just how influential Christianity is they are counted, but when someone wants to show how enlightened Christianity is they are tossed aside as “too stupid and ignorant to even care if God exists”.
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RT
This group are as often religious as irreligious, |
I do not think this is true… do you have some evidence to support this claim?
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Robert Tulip
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:51 am Post subject:
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| Interbane wrote: |
RT: "In his prayers he says if he doesn't hear directly from God he will take that as concurrence with his wishes."
What is wrong with that? |
"Dear Lord:...here's the deal: You freeze everything the way it is, and I won't ask for anything more. If that is OK, please give me absolutely no sign. OK, deal. In gratitude, I present you this offering of cookies and milk. If you want me to eat them for you, give me no sign. Thy will be done." - Homer Simpson
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| "He believes in nothing..."Says who? |
"I've always wondered if there was a god. And now I know there is -- and it's me." - Homer Simpson
"If the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to GIRLS sports, such as hot oil wrestling, foxy boxing, and such and such." - Homer Simpson |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:53 am Post subject:
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First of all let’s remember we are talking about a cartoon character… most probably an over-dramatization of actual human behavior.
Second… Homer talks to god… which is a practice not common of atheists… he is not doing it in front of other people (unless you count the audience) so he is not doing it to demonstrate his belief to other characters… he clearly has some doubts but I expect most people do… the questions and things he asks for are often ridiculous but that is mostly for comic effect… in short I think his behavior is written as sincere but ignorant.
The fact that Homer clearly does not expect an answer is very telling though… I believe it is the lesson of those sketches… No one should expect an answer.
This would be the idea put forth by Mr. Matt Groening (a person who has obviously given the topic much thought) and is probably how he views many Christians and their bible. It is not an idea made up by Homer the fictional cartoon character.
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Dissident Heart
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