Post Christian Era

Interbane · Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: Post Christian Era

I've seen it mentioned in a few books now. How long do you think it will be until Christianity inevitably dwindles away and is stored on the bookshelf of human history? Not total elimination, since I think there will be pockets of believers for centuries to come.

Ashleigh · Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:39 am Post subject:

I don't know. It's possible. If belief goes down, and attendance in churches and other religious institutions [because lets face it, there will be other religions that have loss of faith].

Chris OConnor · Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:56 am Post subject:

I've wondered the same thing for a long time. Christianity will one day lose it's appeal and the number of adherents will dwindle dramatically. Some other religion will probably take it's place very gradually. I'd guess it will be 100's of years for this to take place.

Grim · Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject:

Alternative social institutions will rise to replace the role of the religious body. There could possibly be a rise in private human interest focused non-profits and less orthodox grounded lobby groups.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject:

"New struggles.— After Buddha was dead, his shadow was still shown for centuries in a cave—a tremendous, gruesome shadow. God is dead; but given the way of men, there may still be caves for thousands of years in which his shadow will be shown.— And we—we still have to vanquish his shadow, too!" Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science: Book 3, #108.

"The meaning of our cheerfulness.— The greatest recent event—that "God is dead," that the belief in the Christian God has become unbelievable—is already beginning to cast its first shadows over Europe. For the few at least, whose eyes, the suspicion in whose eyes is strong and subtle enough for this spectacle, some suns seem to have set and some ancient and profound trust has been turned into doubt: to them our old world must appear daily more like evening, more mistrustful, stranger, "older." But in the main one may say: the event itself is far too great, too distant, too remote from the multitude's capacity for comprehension even for the tidings of it to be thought of as having arrived as yet; much less may one suppose that many people know as yet what this event really means—and how much must collapse now that this faith has been undermined because it was built upon this faith, propped up by it, grown into it: for example, the whole of our European morality. This long plenitude and sequence of breakdown, destruction, ruin, and cataclysm that is now impending: who could guess enough of it today to be compelled to play the teacher and advance proclaimer of this monstrous logic of terror, the prophet of a gloom and an eclipse of the sun whose like has probably never yet occurred on earth?.. Even we born guessers of riddles who are, as it were, waiting on the mountains, posted between today and tomorrow, stretched in the contradictions between today and tomorrow, we firstlings and premature births of the coming century, to whom the shadows that must soon envelop Europe really should have appeared by now: why is it that even we look forward to the approaching gloom without any real sense of involvement and above all without any worry or fear for ourselves? Are we perhaps still too much under the impression of the initial consequences of this event—and these initial consequences, the consequences for ourselves, are quite the opposite of what one might perhaps expect, not at all sad and gloomy but rather like a new and scarcely describable kind of light, relief, exhiliration, encouragement, dawn ... Indeed, we philosophers and "free spirits" feel, when we hear the news that the "old god is dead," as if a new dawn shone on us; our heart overflows with gratitude, amazement, premonitions, expectation,—at long last the horizon appears free to us again, even if it should not be bright; at long last our ships may venture out again, venture out to face any danger; all the daring of the lover of knowledge is permitted again; the sea, our sea, lies open again; perhaps there has never yet been such an "open sea."— Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science: Book 5 #343

Interbane · Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject:

I don't think there was a viable acceptable alternative to the moral ground religion claimed in Nietzsche's time. Thankfully there now is, so there is no longer the looming shadow from the consequences of the erosion of a moral structure.

Good point Grim. I work for the YMCA(yes, Young Men's Christian Association), and one of the myths I've learned today isn't true is that the association strives to provide well being to all people, regardless of belief. I disagree with the name, but I agree with the results the YMCA produces. It is a non profit organization, so it indeed fills a support role.

DWill · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:39 am Post subject:

I don't feel the same security about moral values in the absence of religion as Grim and Interbane. All I'm saying is that this great unknown unnerves me a bit. I wonder whether it could be true that in some sense, even those of us who do not have a religious creed could be living off the capital of religion's establishment of morality. Is a "small c" christian such as I might be, beholden to Christianity? I think so. In no way could I ever agree that Judeo-Christian morality has been bad for the world, argue as we may about particulars.

So my question becomes, if we ever arrive at this completely secular world, will we indeed have a good alternative base for morality? Or will we become less morally sensitive the farther in time we become separated from Judeo-Christianity? I know that there is a baseline morality entailed simply in living in lawful societies--no murdering and stealing--but this is far from an entire moral program. What Nietzsche looks forward to with such eagerness, I can't help but feel apprehension about.

We have a fierce debate about abortion. Those against it in any form probably have religious reasons. It could be that the resistance from this quarter keeps us as a society from normalizing forms of abortion that are disturbing to a majority, such as partial-birth abortion. What if there were no religion-based resistance? Would we accept abortion at any stage of pregnancy? Would we begin to accept infanticide in the case of disabled babies? An example, maybe not the best one.

If responding, please remember that these are questions and speculations.

geo · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:03 am Post subject:

geo · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:09 am Post subject:

Oh and regarding killing and stealing and committing acts of aggression against other tribes, religion has always accommodated this by saying the other tribes are "evil" or "heathens" or whatever. We made religion and we can make it do whatever we want.

geo · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:21 am Post subject:

GentleReader9 · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject:

I love it when we all just sit around and wildly speculate about what predated what, and when something different from the things we see now will exist and what that might be like. I'm not being sarcastic. I really like it. This is the place, the fantasy world, where we allow ourselves to be vulnerable to self-discovery, susceptible to having others point things out to us that we could not otherwise see in ourselves. Imagining a world without religion is like taking acid. One person does it and freaks out and jumps out of a window and it's a great tragedy, a cautionary tale. Another person does it, sits quietly in a stream of alternative experience and sensation for a period of time, says a couple of interesting but enigmatic things, and comes back perfectly fine but somehow altered.

I think there is a natural balancing effect in the world. People are going to hit bottom in terms of the effect of energy consumption and production on the environment soon and that will force us to make changes we have seen coming for a long time but avoided dealing with for as long as we could. There is a similar homeostasis (can I get away with that as a word here?)to moral issues. People do whatever they will for as long as they can until they run into the effects of what they have done in the world around them and through other people. They hit a bottom. Then they find something that will help them recover.

Post Christianity? I think it's already here. Christianity doesn't actually dominate the spiritual world as a dogma at this time. It may be something that is widely influential for many people, but it is also, for many, not. And it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone who is Christian. This world is already Post-Everything. There is too much diversity of culture, religion, thought, experience and too much communication for the new global awareness that is emerging to be called anything limited. We're in an amazing time. We have an opportunity to learn so much about ourselves from one another, and Christianity plays a large part in the story of who we are spiritually as humans. I hope we will learn ways to look at our ancestors and what they believed was important to hand down to us with all the love and care that they put into passing it.

The imagery of shadows in a cave in the Nietzsche passage quoted by Dissident Heart is reminiscent of Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" and also, cave paintings like those in France and Spain from the Neolithic period. We could look at those paintings and think about how stylized and basic they are. This would be to miss the depth of connection we have with the people that painted them, to perversely overlook the passion and reverence and creativity and meaning that this act undoubtedly had for those cave painters. (There is evidence that they had to work very hard to obtain and prepare the pigments they used. It was not a whimsical moment in the history of doodling). I don't want to be the kind of person who glances at something many people have given so much of themselves to and just doesn't have the time and patience to "get it." I don't feel endangered by giving Christianity its full due respect and consideration.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject:

Nietzsche wrote this extraordinary book in the 1880s...and within 30 years Europe plunged horrifically into the most destructive war in human history where casualties and deaths numbered over 40 million...and within another 30 years an even more catastrophic war resulted in over 70 million dead...a genocidal holocaust that murdered 6 million Jews and other "undesirables"...3 million more tortured and destroyed in Soviet gulags...and the greatest mass incinerations of hundreds of thousands of humans, plants and animals in the dropping of two atomic bombs on basically civilian populations...and the following century adding over 10,000 nuclear warheads...and the impending climate catastrophes that will substantially alter the biosphere...seriously threatening the future of humanity and life as we know or can imagine it.

Interbane · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject:

"Nietzsche wrote this extraordinary book in the 1880s...and within 30 years Europe plunged horrifically into the most destructive war in human history where casualties and deaths numbered over 40 million...and within another 30 years an even more catastrophic war resulted in over 70 million dead...a genocidal holocaust that murdered 6 million Jews and other "undesirables"...3 million more tortured and destroyed in Soviet gulags...and the greatest mass incinerations of hundreds of thousands of humans, plants and animals in the dropping of two atomic bombs on basically civilian populations...and the following century adding over 10,000 nuclear warheads...and the impending climate catastrophes that will substantially alter the biosphere...seriously threatening the future of humanity and life as we know or can imagine it."

What is your point? Are you blaming this on religion, saying that we should do away with it? I know Hitler quoted the christian bible on numerous occasions, but much of this is simply due to the violent nature of humans. With more scientific breakthroughs and increased world government, as well as the elimination of religion, I think we would see much less of this mass violence.

G: "...and Christianity plays a large part in the story of who we are spiritually as humans."

There is no need in my beliefs for spirituality, so I have no clue what this could be referring to, or how to translate it into what I believe. The closest I can come is that we have ancestral memetics and culture greatly influenced by christianity. The influence is seen in all parts of our life, from holidays to our laws. Or do you mean something different?

geo · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject:

Ashleigh · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject:

I don't know about it being desirable. Maybe back in ancient times and medieval times and even 20 or more years ago it was, because of fear or belief in what might happen if religion didn't give some kind of structure or protection. We have access to so much information today that they didn't have even 20 years ago I suppose, and its so easy to access this that we don't need religious texts and leaders to tell us what we need to know - we can seek this out for ourselves [not to mention the many differing views we can access on a topic, let's just say religion vs. magic as an example] that one day religion may indeed become defunct [for lack of a better word] and as I said before, people won't need texts and leaders to say "This is how the world works, make sure everyone else knows that" [narrow yes but I knew people like that at school and it annoyed me that they thought I was wrong all the time but thats not relevant here, because it was what they believe and I accept that].


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