Every Possible God

Interbane · Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:13 am Post subject:

"Burton spent a lot of time rebutting impossible Gods, and never seemed to engage with the problem of how talk of God could be about something possible. This shows what a challenge it is for theology to explain itself in ways that are possible."

So, since people want to believe in a God, the discussion to be had is 'how can a God possibly exist?'. I say we instead come up with an explanation for how we could all be the avatars of aliens playing a video game. Once we have an entirely possible and nearly irrefutable idea, then lets all believe it's true!!!

Or maybe the goal isn't to propose something as possible simply to believe in it. Perhaps the goal is think up plots for science fiction books, or more to standards with this forum, simply for the sake of exercising our brains.

What other ideas are there that we could find for them a reasonable, nearly irrefutable explanation? Our universe as we know it is actually part of the composition of an atom on the fingernail of a creature in what could be considered a higher 'dimension'. Or perhaps there is an alien species who have developed a seed AI, which in turn grew to an incredibly high intellect, destroyed the alien species that gave it birth, and now controls the universe in a fashion similar to what many people view as a god. Any others?

Dissident Heart · Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject:

Interbane: So, since people want to believe in a God, the discussion to be had is 'how can a God possibly exist?'.

The wanting for God, the desire and longing and passion for God...the love of God...may all simply reflect mental machinations completely devoid of anything beyond our cranial borders; or it could actually refer to something real...really God. Then, following that ancient African, Augustine, the question becomes: "What do I love when I say I love God?"

It may very well be that the actual God of our desires is impossible: and the love of God becomes a love for the impossible...and perhaps religion is really a matter of impossible pursuits. This doesn't mean, as I see it, that it therefore becomes delusional or purely irrational: it means, instead, that there is a restlessness and agitation in the love of God that destabilizes existence, creating faultlines in reality, opening possibilities where once there were none. The love of God deconstructs existing possibilities: clearing away the false idols of absolute certainty, total comprehension and final answers...making room for seedlings of uncertainty, inconclusive results and incomplete answers...exposing what was once thought impossible to be truly something unexpected and unbargained for.

GentleReader9 · Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject:

Dissident Heart,

This is beautiful and could be posted in the original poetry string without much if any edition. This is true, in terms of my personal, actually-lived experience and I believe you must have lived something equally transformative in order to write it. (Dissident Heart wrote):

Interbane · Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject:

That was poetic, and interesting.

Personally I'm more concerned with the truth than poetry, at least when I come to booktalk, and am in this forum.

So, back to reality. I meant the want for belief in a God comes first via indoctrination. Then the human brain comes up with reasoning to support that belief.

(DH backs into a corner and waxes poetic nonsense)

GentleReader9 · Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject:

Interbane,

Poetry can contain truth and truth can be poetic. There is no necessary mutual exclusion. I'm starting to wonder if you know what an open mind actually is when I see that you can read something like that and say it's nonsense. Now this is nonsense:

Interbane · Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject:

"If they were indoctrinated in a particular belief, and they believed it, what was all the wanting about?"

It was my wording. A young child is taken to church and learns all about Christianity. He learns the story, learns of heaven and hell, the need for faith, and how Jesus loves him. The want for a belief in God seems to be bad phrasing, where faith in God would work better.

Many reasons against a belief in God are thrown at this child, which venture outside the explanations given by the bible. Since faith is paramount, these reasons mean nothing. The end result being a belief in God, reasons are simply created to support the belief. Tomorrow I can find more examples, but right now my tired brain can only think of the most obvious; Intelligent Design.

I'm curious what I'm not seeing in DH's poem. Could you explain this sentence for me as you see it?:

"It may very well be that the actual God of our desires is impossible: and the love of God becomes a love for the impossible...and perhaps religion is really a matter of impossible pursuits."

Perhaps it takes initial belief in God to relate to this sentence. Does a love of God leave room for you to believe in the impossible? Destabilizing existence, faultlines in reality, deconstructing existing possibilities... Am I being criticized for not having an open mind by calling this nonsense? I do understand these phrases, and can even see where they would apply with deep and creative thinking, or accepting a paradigm that would change the world, making it round rather than flat. The only place where I can see they apply with a love for God is when one rejects all refutations of his existence and looks for an answer outside the box. All answers or conclusions gained directly follow(are directly motivated by) the belief, which is opposite of the logical course for constructing a worldview.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject:

interbane: That was poetic, and interesting. Personally I'm more concerned with the truth than poetry, at least when I come to booktalk, and am in this forum. So, back to reality. I meant the want for belief in a God comes first via indoctrination. Then the human brain comes up with reasoning to support that belief.

I think you've identified, prehaps unconsciously, your own god: the truth. There is a certain something, somewhere, beyond your control and making demands upon your behavior and course in life...that you have decided to name truth . It demands your interest and makes what seem to be unconditional demands: commanding you think a certain way and act accordingly to those thoughts. And, it also seems that you have been able to steer clear of any indoctrination regarding this god: no, just clear, straight, pure and unvarnished connection...no parents, teachers or cultural influences...just the truth and nothing but the truth!

And, it seems you practice a particularly ascetic piety: beauty and its accompanying pleasures are unwelcome and to be avoided...no, just the cold, hard facts of reality please...the truth is a pitiless god uninterested in your comfort, care or welfare...and especially not attuned to your aspirations, hopes or desires. Fine. That's your faith...I think it somehwat emaciated and hollow, but I can appreciate your desire to find something, somehwere in the world for you to hold on to...why you've decided to hold onto that would help answer the question: what do you love when you say you love god?

Gentle Reader: What Dissident Heart wrote makes profound sense, not only with respect to the desire for an impossible God, but about the desire for any ideal. It expresses a sentiment anyone who has ever quested and striven and questioned and yearned for any high or deep personal goal could understand and value...if they hadn't already closed their minds because they were "certain" they were right and it was wrong before reading it

This sentiment can easily be dismissed as sheer sentimentality and crass desire, romantic nonsense devoid of the cold, hard facts of reality. But I think it unavoidable, at least for those who want more from existence: and I think anyone worth their salt wants more, desires more, and works for more...transforming existence and reality into something it hasnt been...perhaps something once impossible...these impossible people are salty folk...not afraid to ruffle the feathers of convention and disturb the regents of possibility with hopes and aspirations of the impossible...making lovers of God the salt of the earth, spicing things up, adding flavor, arousing a hunger and appetite for life.

Interbane: Perhaps it takes initial belief in God to relate to this sentence.

I don't think there is an archimedian point free of initial belief regarding God...or most things...even what we mean by "I" or "myself"...and, really, I think none of us really know what we mean by "Me"...and I think that uncertainty is closely related to the inconclusiveness we discover when trying to answer the question...what do I love when I love God? Who is the I doing the loving here?

I think what we love tells us a great deal about who we are: what we care for, want to protect, nurture and honor and respect in initimate ways...making ourselves vulnerable and risking betrayal and loss...letting down our guard and opening the fortress gates...inviting someone else into our private, personal spaces...allowing them close access to our precious belongings and individual treasures...and perhaps we discover that with each gate lowered is another further and deeper within...one more barrier and obstacle...one more obstruction...perhaps it is impossible to ever really love another...or impossible to really know another. Love may very well be impossible.

Interbane · Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject:

"I think you've identified, prehaps unconsciously, your own god: the truth."

No, I've consciously identified my primary concern. It wasn't unconcious and it isn't a god.

"It demands your interest and makes what seem to be unconditional demands: commanding you think a certain way and act accordingly to those thoughts."

Stop personifying my concerns. I hold truth as virtuous because I enjoy the discovery of knowledge. With truth as a concern, it acts as a compass.

"And, it seems you practice a particularly ascetic piety: beauty and its accompanying pleasures are unwelcome and to be avoided..."

Unwelcome and avoided? How about embraced and loved? Just because for the brief time that I spend critically thinking and refrain from using emotions in that thinking, doesn't mean I'm not emotional and don't love. That's very insulting DH. The reason I may seem so cold on these forums is that I'm here for the philosphy, and emotions have no place in philosophy except as a topic for discussion.

"This sentiment can easily be dismissed as sheer sentimentality and crass desire, romantic nonsense devoid of the cold, hard facts of reality. But I think it unavoidable, at least for those who want more from existence:"

There's no need for an outright dismissal, as I said, I thought it was poetic. Less so for me, since I'm not religious, but I copy / pasted it to my mom since she enjoys such things. My problem, and the reason that I think it's nonsense, is that it is posted in a philosophical thread, yet had nothing coherent to add to the discussion.

"It may very well be that the actual God of our desires is impossible: and the love of God becomes a love for the impossible...and perhaps religion is really a matter of impossible pursuits."

Perhaps it requires belief in God to relate to this sentence. From what I've gathered, you mean that the God you claim to love is impossible. Being impossible(read: nonexistant?), this God is loved by people so fiercely that they disregard reality so that their love may continue.

You seem to have fallen down the rabbit hole of love with the rest of your post. Perhaps a new thread on the Philosophy of Love to save tangential discussion?

Dissident Heart · Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject:

Interbane: No, I've consciously identified my primary concern. It wasn't unconcious and it isn't a god.

And, primary concerns are a possible kind of God: sometimes just as demanding, unconditional and valuable...and offered sacrifices too.

Interbane: Stop personifying my concerns. I hold truth as virtuous because I enjoy the discovery of knowledge. With truth as a concern, it acts as a compass.

They are personal concerns, reflecting something about your personality, no doubt carried with some degree of personalization: and bequeathed a regency occasionally held by possible deities.

Interbane: The reason I may seem so cold on these forums is that I'm here for the philosphy, and emotions have no place in philosophy except as a topic for discussion.

This is interesting, and full of indoctrination, a chilling doctrinaire...and, frankly, it leaves me a bit cold: a frozen god...chilled devas.

Interbane: My problem, and the reason that I think it's nonsense, is that it is posted in a philosophical thread, yet had nothing coherent to add to the discussion.

Again, this is due to the rather icy altar upon which you sacrifice your passions...in a strange attempt to appease a rather frigid god you have named "Philosophy". I think it is an ascetic attempt to get clean and stay pure: which are really very ancient religious efforts to connect with spirit by way of denying the flesh...the flesh of sweat and tears...both of which are very salty.

But I do agree there is an un-nerving degree of incoherence in what I'm trying to describe...a disturbing senselessness about it...but, I think the impossiblity of God...and the pursuit of other impossibilities like love, justice, democracy, ecological sustainability...I think these kinds of impossible pursuits are senseless and incoherent: at least for those unwilling to risk it...and it is a risk: of course, living under the dominion of the possible is a risk as well...not near as exciting, lacking a taste for the salt of passion and the courage to dive headlong without assurances into mad messiness of love.

Interbane: From what I've gathered, you mean that the God you claim to love is impossible. Being impossible(read: nonexistant?), this God is loved by people so fiercely that they disregard reality so that their love may continue.

I don't claim to love God. I love a God I claim to not really know...in the same way I don't really know myself...nor do I realy know anyone else...there ismore unknown than known when love is involved...but, I do agree with Plato that in order to really know something or someone, you have to love it and them...and to really know is an impossible task- but one well worth the effort!

I don't think existence is the best quality for understanding God: actually, I think loving God does something to existence: it transforms it. In much the same way that loving justice (which hardly really exists) has a way of transforming individuals and institutions...things get unsettled, systems quiver and shake and sometimes collapse...and what was once thought impossible becomes all-too real...and thank God for that!

Interbane · Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:33 am Post subject:

DH: "And, primary concerns are a possible kind of God: sometimes just as demanding, unconditional and valuable...and offered sacrifices too."

No! You're stretching the word God beyond any sensible definition. Primary concerns aren't a possible god by the definition of the word. A god may be the object of a primary concern, but I'd say that it's mainly the object of an ultimate concern.

DH: "They are personal concerns, reflecting something about your personality, no doubt carried with some degree of personalization: and bequeathed a regency occasionally held by possible deities."

They are concerns attributed to me, they aren't conceptual mini-me's.

Me: "The reason I may seem so cold on these forums is that I'm here for the philosphy, and emotions have no place in philosophy except as a topic for discussion."

DH: "This is interesting, and full of indoctrination, a chilling doctrinaire...and, frankly, it leaves me a bit cold: a frozen god...chilled devas."

My mind indoctrinated my mind with this approach to philosophy, you're right! So, is a frozen ice cream God possible?

"Again, this is due to the rather icy altar upon which you sacrifice your passions..."

I'd prefer to say it's analogous to my emotions being placed on a shelf, and what a warm and loving shelf it is with all my emotions stacked high upon it awaiting my return!

"But I do agree there is an un-nerving degree of incoherence in what I'm trying to describe...a disturbing senselessness about it..."

So far, your descriptions have been nothing but circular. You obfuscate your beliefs so profoundly that I'm treating is as if you're letting your fingers run wild so that the resulting dribble will attract the praise of GentleReader again.

"I don't think existence is the best quality for understanding God..."

What is the point in understanding something if it doesn't exist? I'll give you a cookie if you can love your impossible God into existence. Then we can discuss understanding him. Until then I'm eating all the cookies. If you can love God so powerfully that you transform existence and conjure cookies, I'd be happy if you shared; I'm afraid I'll eat all of mine.

GentleReader9 · Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject:

Oh, Dear!

Icy altars... rabbit holes of love to trip the hapless... conceptual mini-me's... and perhaps most disturbingly of all, hogged cookies. What is a GentleReader to do?

I'm glad to know that Interbane has a mother to whom he intentionally sends things he believes she would like, even if he thinks they're nonsense. Somehow this is reassuring. And, perversely, I am also glad to know that Dissident Heart's tone sometimes changes from compassionately, intelligently centered to, well, squabbling. Sorry, I know it's petty of me, but when people are always past that I feel insecure.

I don't for a minute believe anyone is saying anything to get praise from me; this sounds like taunting. Let's just all admit that you are both intelligent people who have valid reasons for valuing what you value, be it the truth (which is not a person and has no temperature to speak of) or a God that challenges you to grow in understanding because He or It remains possible to love while impossible to understand. Those are both totally worthwhile ways to try to grow. To me, that's what spirituality is about and what love is about is hoping that others will grow and do well in ways that have nothing to do with the positive or negative effects for oneself. When I strive to love God, I have to wish well each part of Creation that I touch, or at least accept it and hope it will change for its own betterment -- on its own terms, not mine. It's a practice based on faith but it feels grounded in the truth of my experience.

The contagious memes as I see it are intolerance, dogmatism, superiority, the willingness to persecute and belittle or dehumanize people. The will to seem to do well at others' expense. I say "seem to" because I believe this kind of doing well is hollow and stale and coated with overly-processed artificial sweetners that will rot your heart. Yucky, yucky. Razz 2

As I have opined and will probably opine some more, these behaviors and attitudes can use anything to justify them: religion, class, race, political ideology, even fashion sense, as I know first-hand from junior high school. There are things that are powerful but neutral in themselves which can be used for great good or great harm. Religion is one of them.

I may not be able to get back here for a few days again. I'll try. But it might not happen. Have a nice weekend, all.

Chris OConnor · Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:32 am Post subject:


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