Ch. 13: Faith

Chris OConnor · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: Ch. 13: Faith

Ch. 13: Faith

Please use this thread for discussing Ch. 13: Faith. Whistling

DWill · Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:40 am Post subject:

In a book with this title, it was inevitable that Burton would get around to talking about "the F word" (as he calls it). He begins by connecting "deeply felt purpose and meaning" (the essence of faith/religion) to the feeling of knowing and associated mental sensations. The feeling of purpose and meaning is one such sensation, and as such is universal. He is far from saying that there is "God" in our circuitry, though, as some have claimed. He simply means that we will, in order to be mentally healthy, find some means of placing ourselves within a something-greater, outside of ourselves. And he believes that if more people were aware that in our belief in gods or in science, we are merely fulfilling an unconscious imperative, we would understand each other better. Religion and science might effect a rapprochement.

He says that for some people, science provides some or all of this sense of meaning. Finding out about the mysteries of ourselves in the universe serves as an inspirational mission for many. Where he does see a problem with science is the inclination of some to stress the lack of meaning and intention, the randomness, of the universe that science supposedly points to. It is no wonder that many people want to reject such bleakness, and will even willfully reject mountains of evidence in order to escape it. Further, this randomness or meaninglessness is nothing more than a personal projection or feeling by whoever articulates it. It cannot be objective. Our minds have no way of rationally assessing randomness or meaninglessness. We must reamain in uncertainty about this.

Burton criticizes Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and others for [/i]their[i] certainty that the autonomous rational mind is real. I feel he is being evenhanded here, but I'd be interested in what others think. He has, by the way, made examples of a creationist and an ID guy as well, so he's trying to be balanced.

He again praises the wisdom of Charles Darwin, pp. 192-195, who he believes had the perfect outlook on this subject of personal certainty.

Here are some illustrative passages:

"If we abandon the belief that the feelings of purpose and meaning are within our conscious control, and see them as involuntary mental sensations closely related to the feeling of knowing, we have a potentially powerful tool for reconsidering the science-religion conflict."

"It is an extrordinary proposition to believe that an intellectual understanding of physical properties can reveal subjective metaphysical truths."

"But reason isn't necessarily capable of summoning a sense of meaning."

"His [Dawkins'] near-evangelical effort to convince the faithful of the folly of their convictions has the same zealous ring as those missionaries who feel it is their duty to convert the heathens."

"How different the science-religion controversy would be if we acknowledged that a deeply felt sense of purpose is as necessary as hunger and thirst--that all are universally necessary for survival and homeostasis. How we express these sensations will be a matter of personal taste and predilection."

"To expect well-reasoned arguments to easily alter personal expressions of purpose is to misunderstand the biology of belief."

"To insist that the secular and the scientific be universally adopted flies in the face of what neuroscience tells us about different personality traits generating idiosyncratic worldviews."

""... we need to acknowledge that the evidence for a visceral need for a sense of faith, purpose, and meaning is as powerful as the evidence for evolution."

"If possible, both science and religion should try to adopt and stick with the idea of provisional facts."

Robert Tulip · Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:28 am Post subject:

Interbane · Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject:

"... we need to acknowledge that the evidence for a visceral need for a sense of faith, purpose, and meaning is as powerful as the evidence for evolution."

I have a slight problem with this, but slap me if it would be easily answered by reading the book. I haven't read the book, but maybe I can play devil's advocate.

I believe there is evidence for evolution, as there is evidence for a visceral need for a sense of faith, purpose, and meaning. I think that the need for these things motivate us to accept conclusions about reality prematurely. An answer that includes faith, purpose, and meaning will be accepted very readily. It doesn't matter whether or not that answer is true or false.

Sorry to interrupt, I'm going to make another thread in the philosophy section on this so you guys aren't taken off track.

DWill · Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject:

DWill · Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject:

Dissident Heart · Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject:

Like RT says, great choice of quotations!

Burton: "If we abandon the belief that the feelings of purpose and meaning are within our conscious control, and see them as involuntary mental sensations closely related to the feeling of knowing, we have a potentially powerful tool for reconsidering the science-religion conflict."

We can't help but feel the need for meaning and purpose: or, rather, we need the feelings of meaning and purpose. Is his point to show that religious people simply can't help themselves in seeking meaning and purpose...and scientific atheists should stop buggering them about it? Or, does he also want the scientific atheist to accept their own involuntary drive for meaning and purpose...and thereby see the power of religious-like behavior in their own worldview?

What if these feelings actually corresponded to something outside of our mental sensations? In other words, these feelings exist, not simply because they lend themselves to homeostasis and degrees of flourishing...but because they point toward and refer to a reality that actually does impart meaning and deliver purpose to existence. This means that the religious crowd isn't simply exhibiting involuntary mental sensations when they pray to their God...but, instead, are experiencing genuine meaning and actual purpose because their God is not simply in their head or genes: but really delivering what it is that God delivers...meaning and purpose, and other things too.

DWill · Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject:

Robert Tulip · Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: Dawkins v Burton

Dissident Heart · Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:19 am Post subject:

R.Dawkins: I was once provoked by an anthropologist colleague into putting the point starkly, as follows: Suppose there is a tribe, I said, who believe that the moon is an old calabash tossed into the sky, hanging just out of reach above the treetops. Do you really claim that our scientific truth- that the moon is about a quarter of a million miles away and a quarter the diameter of the Earth – is no more true than the tribe's calabash? “Yes,” the anthropologist said. “We are just brought up in a culture that sees the world in a scientific way. They are brought up to see the world in another way. Neither way is more true than the other.”

I think the important distinction missed by both Dawkins and his anthropologist colleague is NOT the tools and methods that measure the distance and width of the moon. But, instead, what does the moon mean, its significance, place and purpose in the overall narrative that envelopes and mobilizes each community.

Dawkins does not consider these ways in which his fetishized methodology has little to say in the matter:

- One community keeps a substantial portion of its population locked away, never able to see the moon: they are subterranean workers forced to mine minerals for ruling tribal members...these miners who never see the moon are simply expendible slave labor to be worked to death, bodies disposed like garbage, kept alive with the most minimal of care.

- One community stages a fabulous feast and celebration during the season of the "harvest moon": all the fruits of their summer toil in the fields have been harvested and a festival of distribution and sharing of food is participated by all the members...dances are performed for the moon, songs are sung to the moon, and poems recited, artworks displayed and ancient dramas performed for the moon

- One community sacrifices huge amounts of its shared goods and accumulated wealth for the purpose of reaching the moon: they make it a budgetary priority to develop the technology and mission to send a few of their members to the surface of the moon...they accept that much will not be accomplished on the earth for the success of this mission...projects that could feed, house, clothe, and educate large portions of their population are abandoned for the greater cause of sending two or three to the moon...they are in contest with other communities and think that by reaching the moon first, they will attain superiority and domination.

DWill · Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Dawkins v Burton

DWill · Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject:

Robert Tulip · Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:40 am Post subject:


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