What do you believe about science?

Dissident Heart · Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:36 am Post subject:

Pure Science

Somewhere, somehow, apart from human interference exists a domain where science reigns fully supreme: a realm free of the corruption of human emotions, agendas, attitudes, allegiences or alliance...a distinct locale, pristine and unvarnished, untouched by the grubby hands of human intention or desire...truly a place of pure knowledge, simply the truth: beautiful and good and true...with borders in tact to protect its purity and keep out the dangerous and malicious and destructive drives that often pollute human experience...humans in their stupidity and bias, emotionalism and hatred, fear and despair are to blame for the misuse and abuse of science- which only offers truth, or at least a way to the truth, or at least a way to get away from deception and fallacy. Somehow, in all of the interconnected networks of interwoven grubbiness and dirt we call "life"...a place of pure knowledge has managed to rise above the mess of it all, keeping itself clean of all the blood, guts, decay and wretchedness that plagues existence: and this is where pure Science resides.

ZachSylvanus · Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject:

Again, gross mis-characterizations.

Bravo.

Interbane · Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject:

Science is a method. It uncovers provisional truths. Blame the light bulb for lighting up the dark? The method itself is a natural phenomenon, it is simply the method most effective at understanding our reality(at this time.)

Blaming science for anything is like blaming a rock on a hill for having the potential energy to come rolling down and turn you to hamburger. The analogy holds. A rock is material, science is procedural, Both are a natural part of our world with potential. Blame the goblin standing behind the rock with a lever for wrongfully using that potential.

Religion has directly killed more people in Earth's history than science. Science has directly saved more people in Earth's history than religion.

Maybe the motive for that goblin's actions are to blame? Maybe the goblin sees you as a heretic and wants you dead. Then his beliefs are foundational to his motive in using the potential to kill you.

Stop trying to shift the blame from the true culprit of destruction and slaughter onto science. Blame the motive of the user, not the builder of the gun.

Dissident Heart · Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject:

Interbane: Science is a method. It uncovers provisional truths.

Science doesn't do anything...people do. Methods don't simply exist, people apply them...with sometimes wonderful and sometimes horrible results.

Interbane: Blame the light bulb for lighting up the dark?

I don't know where the word blame has arisen in this thread...I haven't used it once. I did state that we should be ashamed that the terror of nuclear annihilation is allowed/supported/encouraged/paid for by our tax dollars to exist...and that the scientific method was an integral part of making that happen. IF you are not ashamed of this, then shame on you...shame on all of us, really.

Interbane: Religion has directly killed more people in Earth's history than science. Science has directly saved more people in Earth's history than religion.

So are you implying a belief that science should be in the business of saving people and not killing them? And, could you scientifically verify your two assertions here? Did economics, politics, resource scarcity, racism, sexism, etc. play any part alongside all of this killing and saving you describe?

Interbane: Stop trying to shift the blame from the true culprit of destruction and slaughter onto science. Blame the motive of the user, not the builder of the gun.

Again, this isn't about blame. But it is about recognizing the inescapable element of motive in every step of the scientific way.

Interbane · Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject:

DH: "Science doesn't do anything...people do. Methods don't simply exist, people apply them...with sometimes wonderful and sometimes horrible results."

Thank you, science doesn't do anything, people do. The question to ask is why would people progress in a certain direction in the search for knowledge? Why would the Taliban use science to help them achieve their ends?

DH: "IF you are not ashamed of this, then shame on you...shame on all of us, really."

I am ashamed of it. But I'm also proud that we realize the destruction it can cause, and instead make nuclear reactors to power our cities.

DH: "Again, this isn't about blame. But it is about recognizing the inescapable element of motive in every step of the scientific way."

Would the motive apply to the person practicing the scientific method, or to the scientific method itself? The person, of course.

Science is neutral. It helps us understand our world. It is how we then use this understanding that matters.

DH: "So are you implying a belief that science should be in the business of saving people and not killing them?"

Science doesn't have a business. People do. I believe that the knowledge science uncovers should be used for good by those people, for example the nuclear reactors.

Grim · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject:

Interbane · Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject:

"I feel that we as a conscious human member simply come along and put definition to the phenomenon of natural method and try to measure it, poorly emulating it in our process"

This just made me think... is there anything besides natural phenomena that the scientific method is able to investigate? I'm sure we could come up with a million ideas like spirituality and dieties, but I mean something concrete.

For example, science can determine which style of writing is more appealing to citizens of a certain town. Such a thing may have a place in our natural world now, but only came to be recently in the larger picture. So there will be items in the future that may not yet exist that science will be able to analyze.

Just pondering... you can ignore me.

Grim · Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject:

Well quantum physics may seems to reach into that "other" side. It seems to me that it is a way of explaining fact through fancy but I don't even pretend to have anything more than an introductory knowledge on the subject.

In many ways I think the field is more human than real (probably not possible), and provides little more than a test into the limits of human comprehension. In a way philosophy would be an examination beyond natural phenomenon, a purely human engagement. A modern human life, while very harmful to nature on earth, is wrapped tightly in natural systems: physics chemistry mathematics thought, whatever.

Thoughts?

Interbane · Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:33 am Post subject:

I think that the human ability to transfer our knowledge into objective formats gives us nearly unlimited potential to explore our world. Quantum Physics seems to test the power and precision of our instruments rather than our comprehension. The Uncertainty Principle acts as a barrier that could possibly be a problem with human comprehension. Our inability to gain both position and velocity of a particle may not be a natural part of the universe as we currently think, it may be solved by information or a process that we haven't yet uncovered. The recently built LHC shows steps forward with instrumentation. Reality tests seem to be at their limit until we have the resources to conduct long range entanglement experiments in space.

On the topic of this thread, I'm more a believer in results. I see technology all around me that is becoming so advanced as to be almost magical. I'm convinced our increased understanding of ourselves and our environment will lead us eventually away from war and suffering. I think that can only happen as long as science isn't impeded, and exclusivist beliefs such as the monotheisms are eliminated.

Interbane · Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:02 pm Post subject:

I just want to teleport to work every day.


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