• In total there are 7 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 7 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 789 on Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:08 am

Chapter 1. Economy

#51: July - Aug. 2008 (Non-Fiction)
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2719 times
Been thanked: 2662 times
Contact:
Australia

Unread post

DWill wrote:Robert,
Welcome back, and really interesting perspective on the topic. I think it might be as I suspected: Thoreau sees in the word philanthropy a particular, and to him noxious, form of helping. He doesn't have an aversion, per se, to helping those in need, from fugitive slaves to the poorest citizens in the town. I didn't think that philanthropy is a separate category from other forms of helping. Maybe some consider it to be so. I can't see the negative in efforts to stop the spread of AIDS in Africa, for example. Perhaps philanthropic organizations or NGOs go about it inefficiently; I wouldn't know.

DWill
AIDS in Africa is a good example of the problem with philanthropy. In some countries HIV infection rates are 40% of the population, so the epidemic is a major deadly human crisis which has Africa reeling with inability to cope. Loss of productive people to AIDS is a main factor in Zimbabwe's tragedy. However, the question is how to respond. Charities each have their own approach, and are accountable to their donors for policy. As a result, while they often help people in good ways, they also produce a disjointed confusion in the overall health system in the receiving country, with some places getting help, others not, and a messy debate about abstinence, condoms, faith, prevention, care, etc. This can all make it harder for health departments to plan and deliver budgets and programs. Better results require harmonised and coordinated approaches which build local national systems, and which set priorities according to evidence and need. Philanthropy is mostly much better than nothing, but it is generally incapable of the sort of harmonised input which is needed for sustainable development. In many African countries, aid money is available for HIV, but not for malaria, or for that matter, for road accidents, which is among the largest preventable causes of death and disability, but is seen as a dull topic by NGOs.

The lack of response to the epidemic of road crashes in poor countries is an example of the policy distortion resulting from philanthropy. In Cambodia, road crashes are estimated to cause seventy times as much health impact as land mines, but the NGO campaign on land mines struck a popular nerve in the west, resulting in disproportionate availability of funding to address the much smaller problem. Paul McCartney's ex-gold digger lost her leg to a car accident, but campaigned on land mines. Just think if Princess Diana had become a pinup for the benefits of wearing seatbelts, as this could have saved her life. Systemic approaches require analytical study of costs, benefits and options, not marketing-driven efforts to separate rich people from their charity dollar. Another thing that would help is recognition by rich countries that reducing world poverty through sustainable development is a vastly better way of building their own security than spending trillions on weapons.
User avatar
Thomas Hood
Genuinely Genius
Posts: 823
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:21 pm
16
Location: Wyse Fork, NC
Been thanked: 1 time

Unread post

Message Deleted.
Last edited by Thomas Hood on Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Saffron

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
I can has reading?
Posts: 2954
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:37 pm
16
Location: Randolph, VT
Has thanked: 474 times
Been thanked: 399 times
United States of America

Unread post

Thomas Hood wrote:
A hard question: Doesn't giving AID's medicine to Africans (or anybody else) increase the rate of infection by prolonging the time period in which they can infect others?

Tom
How could anyone even suggest such a thing - withholding medications from all because a few might infect others. Even more offensive to me is singling out Africans.
Last edited by Saffron on Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Thomas Hood
Genuinely Genius
Posts: 823
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:21 pm
16
Location: Wyse Fork, NC
Been thanked: 1 time

Unread post

Saffron wrote:How could anyone even suggest such a thing - withholding medications from all because a few might infect others. Even more offensive to me is singling out Africans.
Sorry to rub you the wrong way again, Saffron, but get real. I didn't single out Africans and there's no "might" about it. Infectious sexually-active persons stay sexually active. In much of Central Africa there is no law and order, so any kind of responsible health service is impossible.

But considering your reaction, maybe it would be imprudent for Robert to respond to my question. I will delete it.

Tom
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6499
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2719 times
Been thanked: 2662 times
Contact:
Australia

Unread post

deleted
Last edited by Robert Tulip on Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
DWill

1H - GOLD CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6966
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:05 am
16
Location: Luray, Virginia
Has thanked: 2262 times
Been thanked: 2470 times

Unread post

In much of Central Africa there is no law and order, so any kind of responsible health service is impossible.
In much of inner city areas such as Anacostia in Washington DC, there is not much law and order, either. I don't see, Tom, where your view allows any rationale whatsoever for AIDS treatment. Of course any treated person MAY infect someone else.

DWill
User avatar
Thomas Hood
Genuinely Genius
Posts: 823
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:21 pm
16
Location: Wyse Fork, NC
Been thanked: 1 time

Unread post

Will, I do not believe you have any appreciation of the chaos that is Africa. When I lived there, the trucks loaded with corpses came through the town at night. Surely there are no trucks loaded with corpses coming out of Anacostia. Africa will not cease to be a place of poverty, disease, and brutality until there is some form of social discipline.

Tom
WildCityWoman
Genius
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:09 am
16
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Test post . . .

Unread post

Well, as was suggested by Chris at Book Talk's message, I've cleared the cache - cookies too!

I just successfully entered a post on Chris's 'Florida' storm post . . . maybe that's the problem solved.

But really . . . do I have to log out of every other forum I'm on before I post here?
WildCityWoman
Genius
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:09 am
16
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 13 times

OK - I'll return to discuss Walden

Unread post

I'll return later in the day to discuss Walden.
User avatar
Penelope

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
One more post ought to do it.
Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:49 am
16
Location: Cheshire, England
Has thanked: 323 times
Been thanked: 679 times
Gender:
Great Britain

Unread post

I have been reading and following this discussion over a week or two (in short bursts) because there is a lot to think about.

I was most interested in your posts regarding philanthropy and charity and thought a lot about George Bernard Shaw's views in comparison.

I do believe in corporate responsibility and that we need to all contribute to the good of the whole social system, because that is the attitude I was taught and grew up with. However, I have encountered some very lazy socialists...who just let the government look after those in need. I have also met some very caring and socially responsible 'conservatives'.

I think the question I wanted to ask on reading the posts on this thread is:-

Was Thoreau advocating 'corporate responsibility' when he criticised the Philanthropists and the Charity Workers.

Because GBS was highly critical of the 'good' ladies who gave out blankets to the poor, but would not agree to the organising of society to really make sure the poor were adequately educated and had adequate health care, so that they did not need to rely/fall back on charity.

I am not intending to be provocative....I am just wondering if Thoreau shared Shaw's attitude.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
Post Reply

Return to “Walden - by Henry David Thoreau”