Hmmm....

Ragazzo · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: Hmmm....

Wow. After reading a few posts, I feel like I'm the only member who's not a Mensan. I joined Booktalk with the intent of discussing books, but after searching through the forums, I learned that books are only a part of this website. It was a gratifying surprise to learn that religion, God, afterlife, etc are also hot topics.
I am currently forming and evolving my religious beliefs. I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic schools my entire life, church on Sundays, youth church groups.... the works. As a child, I was naturally naive and ignorant; therefore, I believed what I was told. I was a typical teen, not really giving these topics any attention. It wasn't until my early twenties, when my father became ill, that I truly started to examine religion and god, as well as my beliefs. I started to notice the power of religion and its importance, not in my life, but in the lives of those around me. Well, after my father past, I basically gave the finger to whatever god i had believed in for "failing" my father. Long story short, now I'm left with a blank slate, and I don't know what to believe.
I have a major problem that I can't seem to get past with all three major religions; the disdain, prejudice and judgment of homosexuals. As a gay man, that's a major turn off. Duh. Thus, I can't seem to connect to any religion.
I dont' believe in a hell. I don't know if I believe in a god = creator (currently seeking an answer to this one). I do believe in souls. And I do believe in an inner "god". And I do believe that I am confused about it all. Very Happy

Later

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Hmmm....

Hey Ragazzo!

I was a long time Catholic School boy myself. Alter boy and all! I never really accepted any of it as I look back. Oh, I of course had conflict because people I loved were telling me about god, the devil and angels and all, but some part of me never really accepted any of it. (I do not believe in souls either) It was not until I finished HS that I realized that there just was not a god. There was no one specific incident that made me turn away, as you had with your dad passing, and I am greatful for that.

I say grateful because I am very confident and content in my non-belief now. If it had come about due to being angry at 'god', I may have not have made a real break with those false and dangerous beliefs. Reason tells me there is no god. I think about it alot (less these days) and it just does not add up. It is patently obvious to me that it is all made up by humans. Humans who lack the ability to fully understand what, who and where we are in this world. We created a patch to protect the exposed hole in our knowledge and understanding.

I am glad that you at least have questioned the existence of god. I just hope you stick around here and elsewhere to explore other reasons for that non-belief. Unfortunately, booktalk is not as heavily into the material that would cover this anymore. But look back at past conversations we had when I, Mad Architect, Chris, Frank, Dissident Heart and others beat this topic to death!

And BTW...I agree with you that the way homosexuals are treated by religious people and people in general is pretty disgusting. But for religious people to be doing it is amazing to me as they always preach tolerance and love...but that is only as long as you conform to what they want.

Welcome to Booktalk.

Mr. P.

Chris OConnor · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:33 am Post subject:

I'd love to get back into these topics more.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject:

In a way me too...but I am glad for the break from it for now! I am much less pissed all the time! lol

Plus...I sense a few members would be too quick to exit if it ever got to that point again. We had some heavy battles back then and mostly all had thick skins.

Mr. P.

Penelope · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject:

I haven't got a thick skin - as you know, I have been known to get prickly.....but I have a lot of love and affection for people who care about the truth, warts and all.

Anyway...it wouldn't do you lot any good to sit around nodding in agreement with one another would it????

But, if I am a pain in the arse....you only have to say the word, and I promise you I will go away, and I promise you, it won't be in a huff.

I don't think a person's sexual tendancies are any of our business actually, UNLESS, and it is a BIG unless, both parties are not consenting. But sex between consenting adults is not anyone else's business.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject:

Robert Tulip · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:02 am Post subject: The Problem of Theology

The debate about atheism is one of the things that most attracts me to Booktalk, as it promises a robust and logical approach to absolute beliefs. However, there is much emotion and assumption in this topic which can be hard to disentangle. Debate around theology is generally superficial and at cross-purposes. Scientists observe that many theological claims are false while religionists have no interest in evidence as the basis of their world view. There is virtually no dialogue about assumptions. Richard Dawkins has decisively refuted the pre-modern method of pietism and its silly ideas such as biblical inerrancy, but this superficial debate does not touch on what people mean by belief in God. I personally believe that the Christian doctrine of God provides a necessary and sufficient basis for human salvation. However, these words – believe, Christian, God, salvation, - are incredibly loaded by historical associations, many of which have been proven false. As I see it, the challenge is to redefine these terms in a way that is compatible with logic. For rational people to abandon this language allows the dark side to monopolise the debate. What is required is a complete inversion of much popular Christianity to make it congruent with the teachings of Jesus in the Bible and with modern science.

An example is the doctrine of salvation. Pope Benedict just visited Australia for World Youth Day, and a neo-fascist from the Pope Pius 12 Society criticized this event for not being sufficiently medieval. The nub of the fascist criticism was that people were not concentrating sufficiently on how to get to heaven through obsolete magical rituals such as the rosary. My reaction to this fascist criticism is to observe that firstly, heaven does not exist, and secondly, that the objective of ‘getting to heaven’ is a pharisaical corruption of the doctrine of Christ. The Lord’s Prayer says ‘thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’, a line that can only be interpreted to mean that the aim of Christians should be to transform our planet in line with an ideal vision. The Roman imperial capture of the church was totally opposed to messianic transformation, so corrupted the teaching of Christ into the false idea that the objective of faith is to get to heaven. This selfish idea, grounded in vain hopes of immortality, has no biblical basis. Rather, the biblical doctrine of salvation is about a selfless ideal in which the good of the whole is put first. When evangelicals define salvation as 'getting to heaven' they are spouting shit.

In recently reading Your Inner Fish with Booktalk, I was struck by the supreme elegance of Neil Shubin’s description of the evolution of the bones of the ear, with two bones derived from the jaw of a reptile and the third from the gill arch of fish. This description is objectively true, and anyone who disputes it is wrong. When so-called Christians dispute the mechanism of evolution, they are promoting known falsehoods and lies, something the Bible describes as the work of Satan. If Christians believe that God is truth, they must necessarily support evolution or stand convicted of hypocrisy.

The central disputed idea is the concept of God. Historical accretions have covered this idea with magical falsehoods, such as the myth of a heavenly afterlife and the false idea of miraculous intervention. Deconstructing this situation, the task is to find a kernel of truth in the Biblical teachings which can survive the robust examination of science. My view is that this solution emerges from examination of the problem of how we can fix our planet. The other evolutionary book recently discussed at Booktalk, Our Inner Ape, presents a couple of great pointers towards this aim of reconciling God and planetary needs. In the paradisiacal world of the bonobo apes in the Congo, material needs were met abundantly so all could focus on building loving relationships. In thinking about how to transform our planet into a place of abundant love, the genetic model of our close cousins the bonobo provides an excellent basis, where forgiveness, mercy, empathy, trust and love were the basis of normal interaction. This example points to the idea of grace as the loving will of the universe. I do not think the universe loves us in any metaphysical way, but for us to imagine that it does provides a path for progress. It gets back to the doctrine of the trinity, and the mutual love between the son and the father, both of whom need each other in order to be fulfilled. So God is that part of the universe which has a relation akin to parental status for humanity, and humanity achieves its sense of purpose and meaning by imagining that this cosmic direction can fulfil our lives. In this case, the imagination functions as a real prayer, in that by viewing the cosmos as loving we have potential to make it so.

Penelope · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:54 am Post subject:

Robert, how your post has made me think!

Robert said:-

Penelope · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject:

PS - I just had a lovely insight:

This is what the 'Man' was talking about when he warned us about putting 'New Wine' into 'Old Bottles'.

The Bottles would burst....he predicted. Smile

Thomas Hood · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: The Problem of Theology

Penelope · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject:

Ooooh - Thomas Hood....that is a delightful post!!!

Sun - Day - The Light

Moon - Day - The Waters (symbolic of the emotions?)

We are all singing the same song - but from different Songsheets.

And 'silly us' we are arguing about the songsheets.....instead of delighting in the the song......

I say......bugger the songsheet....Sing Out.

Thomas Hood · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject:

Penelope · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject:

Ah, but Thomas Hood, our Robert is a Scientist who gives more than a nod to astrology....and has suffered demeaning comments which I have seen for myself on other websites than this.

Hard for him I suspect!

How can we support him?

Let's sing:-

Words of Love
Softly spoken like clouds above...
Drift away.....what can we say,
That isn't in the way we act?
That will carry through the years intact,
I'm looking forward to looking back
From further on down the track
Together....in fact....forever...my love.....

Silly love songs eh? Well, what's wrong with that? Smile

Thomas Hood · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject:

Penelope · Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject:

Robert can comfort himself with the thought that Galileo suffered more than demeaning comments......for saying that the earth orbited the sun and not the other way around. Gallileo was sensible enough to retract....knowing that, 'Truth is the Daughter of Time'.

some silence...but then upspake...a vessel of a more ungainly make

What? Did the hand then of the potter shake????

Who is the potter? And Who the Pot?

...and that is relevant to Robert's last post.


	FORUMS	ABOUT	BOOKS	VIDEOS	TRANSCRIPTS	LINKS	BLOGS	DONATE	CONTACT