Cannibals and Kings by Marvin Harris.

Thomas Hood · Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject:

Harris never had a pet cow. Let me tell you, when you're five years old and look up into those beautiful deep eyes on a frosty morning with a cloud of smoke coming from those large feminine nostrils, it's a mystical experience better than the Virgin Mary in a motorcycle scrape. They you know why cows are holy. Most of the persons I knew from that time are dead. The only one I get teary-eyed about is Valentine.

Tom

Ophelia · Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject:

I understand Tom.
I've always been grateful that I wasn't in a situation when I had to eat animals who lived near me, as people on farms used to do.
Harris does write about animals and pets though, briefly.

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:21 am Post subject:

Chapter 12: "In India today only untouchables freely partake of red meat".

This is an excellent sentence to attract the reader's attention at the beginning of the chapter, but is it true?

So much has been written on the subject that it seems unlikely one can answer just from information read on the web.

I can understand why brahmins , who could afford meat, would choose not to eat it, but does it follow that untouchables, who are outside the caste system, and are among the poorest people in India, can afford to eat meat?
My impression is that there is no clear-cut answer.

Here is a reference to an article from "The Hindu" published in 2001.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2001/08/14/stories/13140833.htm

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:53 am Post subject:

Reminder: the caste system. Here is one page I find clear:

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:18 am Post subject:

For those of you who read this and may be frustrated by not being able to read Harris's book, here is an eight-page document by Harris on the topic. It's not clear to me when it was written.

http://74.125.39.104/search?q=cache:focfEAmw91IJ:www.sociology101.net/ readings/Indias-sacred-cow.pdf+untouchables+eat+beef+modern+india&hl=f r&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=fr&client=firefox-a

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:28 am Post subject:

One of the most interesting doculents I've found is:
Untouchability, The Dead Cow And The Brahmin (1949)
by B.R. Ambedkar

http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-ambekarbeef050703.htm

President Camacho · Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject:

Yeah Ophelia, I don't want to share! Less people per square mile means more grazing land available for me to raise my cattle and also for Tom to raise his cattle. I can eat mine and he can hold hands with his - or stare into their eyes, or marry them - whatever. Less people = more resources to go around!

I also didn't know that eating meat was something low-caste Hindus did. I don't know too much at all about them but I can see the 'why' behind it.

The person that refrained from eating their cattle prospered and probably became higher castes? Everyone who made it, naturally looked down at those who ate their cattle because they knew they would most likely die or were at least giving in to temptation. Evil is satisfying the now at the expense of the future - kind of thing. Pure speculation, of course.

I think the lower castes are able to eat the meat because no one else wants to eat it. This wasn't always the case. It used to be that only the rich could eat meat - by making meat a taboo, the value of meat is nil. Now the poor can 'afford' to eat it.

You remember what Harris says about religious sanctions and being dependent on economic forces. I can't remember the quote, or where it was in the book. The point is that if cows were the only food source available tomorrow, the taboo would disappear at about the same time.

Well, I've started to read chapter 15 and I must say that it is another one of my favorite chapters from Harris. I'll post a recap after I'm done.

Ophelia · Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:17 am Post subject:

President Camacho · Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:53 am Post subject:

Wow. There is no hope for a good life anywhere if you're a cow.

President Camacho · Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject:

Chapter 15 is one of the best chapters in the book for me. It validates the feelings I share about populations. I don't think that Malthus was wrong just because he didn't think there would be new/improved forms of contraception. This entire chapter shows that production efficiency is constantly chasing human reproduction, not the other way around. He brings up the fact that energy from the earth has greatly helped to raise the living standards of people. It's free energy or free-work that populations have been able to reap the benefits of.

Now, with todays populations in mind, think about no nuclear power or no petroleum resources. Without the ability of every person on earth to tap the energy emitted from the sun the world would soon enter a dark period of starvation and chaos. Everyone knew about solar power, wind power, etc., and failed to use it because the short term costs were too high. I see mass death and chaos.

"We can now see how technology got the upper hand in the race against intensification, depletion, and declining efficiency. The industrial world tapped an enormous fresh supply of cheap energy at the same time that it was able to apportion this bonanza among a population that was increasing far below its reproductive potential. But the race is far from over. The advantage can be only temporary. We are slowly beginning to comprehend that a commitment to machines that run on fossil fuels is a commitment to depletions, declining efficiencies, and declining rates of profits in the strongest possible degree. Coal and oil cannot be recycled; they can only be used up at a faster or slower rate."

This is Harris whispering a warning from the grave. I'm going to think about this every time someone mentions how much coal we have or when a GE coal commercial comes on television. We could be using these fuels for a much better purpose than merely burning them to get to and from work.

Ophelia, are you familiar with Hubbert's peak? It's basically just a bell curve with peak oil at the top. Efficiency reaches a point at the top where only declining returns are possible on the down slope of the curve. Harris' research says the peak for gasoline was in 1995, I believe. This means we're sliding down the back side of the curve.

Here's something off of wikipedia. You have to keep in mind that this type of information is highly contested by energy companies. (much like global warming information)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peak_theory

Hubbert predicted peak oil in America.

Ophelia · Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:12 am Post subject:

Camacho, I haven't read chapter 15 yet, so I'll get back to you about this later.

Chapter 14 : the origin of capitalism.

I must say I was not looking forward to a chapter about capitalism: this brought back to mind the industrial revolution, which is a topic I had to study so many times at school.

Anyway, first, feudal kingdoms: Harris does a good job of summing up and presenting the facts about feudalism and the manor system. As I was reading I remembered the topics that I learnt about as a student in primary school and junior high school- all about the history of prehistory, antiquity (Greece Rome), the Gauls and the Roman conquest, then the feudal system and serfdom, and feudal manors. I still remember some of the illustrations too!
And I wonder what is presented, and in which order, in American elementary schools. Do you start with American history— the first settlers, thanksgiving, the war of Independence, and introduce the other topics later?
It would make sense to start with the history of the country— and then go backwards?

Then I have to say Harris manages to present the topic of capitalism in an interesting way, even to me. He very neatly makes a link with the topic studied at the beginning of the book, about the “big men” and redistribution.

President Camacho · Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:15 am Post subject:

In elementary school we learn about the founding fathers of our country and other exceptional Americans like Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. We learn about the holidays like Thanksgiving and do little plays. We do the Independence War but it is really anecdotal. Like, we learn about Paul Revere's ride, Benedict Arnold was a traitor, and George Washington lead us to victory. We do plays about that too. It goes pretty much from the Pilgrims (totally skips the Vikings) on. We learn about Native Americans as friends of the first settlers (fairy tale type stuff).

Then in Middle School we start filling in the gaps with hard facts. The plight of the American Indians and the civil war is really introduced. Government is also introduced.

High school is a little broader but nothing Pre-USA is really introduced. We learn about the French Revolution, why we split from Englad, Irish potato famine, and other significant matters in Europe. We don't really learn about Rome or Greece, except in Literature or Art classes. Forget WWI and WWII - they definitely don't get any real attention. Civil War gets way more attention.

The education I received was horrible. I was a terrible student but I don't remember really being offered a whole lot.


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