Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:01 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Ch. 1: Apes in the Family 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 13861
Location: Florida
Thanks: 1880
Thanked: 720 times in 572 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)
Highscores: 10

Post Ch. 1: Apes in the Family
Please use this thread for discussing Ch. 1: Apes in the Family. :bananadance:


_________________
We generated $419.10 in donations for Christmas gifts for the kids at the Cleveland Christian Home this year. Thank you so much for helping make their Christmas a bit brighter! The gifts have been ordered from Amazon.com and I've posted the invoice.


Sat May 10, 2008 9:40 pm
Profile Email YIM WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Comandante Literario Supreme w/ Cheese

BookTalk.org Moderator
Silver Contributor

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2857
Location: Round Hill, VA
Thanks: 421
Thanked: 331 times in 252 posts
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post 
Just started to read the book and was struck by the paragraph at the bottom of page 1. It starts and ends:


Quote:
This opinion is still very much with us.....We are born with impulses that draw us to others and that later in life make us care about them.


I can't agree more with the opening ideas in this book. I think that when people think about and write about human nature the focus tends to be on the negative, i.e. the selfish genes and aggression. Rarely is there any real weight given to the qualities that pull us together and keep us interdependent. I believe these are the stronger more important behaviors/qualities of human beings.


_________________
"may my mind stroll about hungry and fearless and thirsty and supple"
- e.e. cummings


Fri May 16, 2008 9:47 am
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
No End in Sight


Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 70
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 3 times in 2 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post 
You're right Saffron. de Waal is very critical of what he calls "veneer theory" - the idea that we are really nasty to the core and this nastiness is covered by a thin veneer of altruism. This seems very popular in evolutionary circles, and I agree it's wrong. I think we have the capacity to be both good and bad, to state the bleeding obvious.



Mon May 19, 2008 4:32 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 13861
Location: Florida
Thanks: 1880
Thanked: 720 times in 572 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)
Highscores: 10

Post 
On page 2 the author asks, "But if all that people care about is their own good, why does a day-old baby cry when it hears another baby cry?"

As much as I'd like to reject Richard Dawkins gene-centered view of biological evolution I'm more inclined to say that Frans de Waal might be taking the "selfish gene" concept out of context.

So why do they cry? How about "they just do." Babies do what nature has selected them to do. Empathy is a trait natural selection ensures we all possess. We're all born with it because without it our forebears would have perished. The genes that control empathetic responses are passed along from one generation to the next.

Babies are cute for the same reason....kinda. Ugly babies don't get the same level of attention, support, security and love that cute babies do. Oh, I know. You and I are different. We'd love even the most grotesquely deformed mutant baby...because we've risen above our animal origins. :| I'm more taking about those other people out there who can't control their primal instincts.



Last edited by Chris OConnor on Tue May 20, 2008 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon May 19, 2008 11:34 pm
Profile Email YIM WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 13861
Location: Florida
Thanks: 1880
Thanked: 720 times in 572 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)
Highscores: 10

Post 
Quote:
...the idea that we are really nasty to the core and this nastiness is covered by a thin veneer of altruism


I don't think Dawkins holds such a view.



Mon May 19, 2008 11:38 pm
Profile Email YIM WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 13861
Location: Florida
Thanks: 1880
Thanked: 720 times in 572 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)
Highscores: 10

Post 
The story of Kuni trying to help the injured starling is very touching but I don't think it contradicts Dawkins selfish gene view. The empathy Kuni felt and displayed was probably very genuine AND a product of natural selection.


_________________
We generated $419.10 in donations for Christmas gifts for the kids at the Cleveland Christian Home this year. Thank you so much for helping make their Christmas a bit brighter! The gifts have been ordered from Amazon.com and I've posted the invoice.


Mon May 19, 2008 11:56 pm
Profile Email YIM WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Genuinely Genius

Silver Contributor

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 807
Location: NC
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Female
Country: United States (us)

Post 
Yeah, De Waal mentions The Selfish Gene no less than three times in this first chapter, I believe! He really has a problem with that book and/or Dawkins. The Selfish Gene is one of my favorite books and one that made me look at evolution in a different way. I wonder how Dawkins would respond to De Waal's criticism.



Tue May 20, 2008 4:17 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 13861
Location: Florida
Thanks: 1880
Thanked: 720 times in 572 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)
Highscores: 10

Post 
I'd be happy to call or email Dawkins for a response. Let's get further into this discussion period and see if we're understanding Frans de Waal. It could be our misunderstanding.


_________________
We generated $419.10 in donations for Christmas gifts for the kids at the Cleveland Christian Home this year. Thank you so much for helping make their Christmas a bit brighter! The gifts have been ordered from Amazon.com and I've posted the invoice.


Tue May 20, 2008 5:26 pm
Profile Email YIM WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thinks Abridged Editions are an Abomination

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4079
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 1120
Thanked: 1149 times in 865 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post 
Saffron wrote:
Just started to read the book and was struck by the paragraph at the bottom of page 1. It starts and ends:
Quote:
This opinion is still very much with us.....We are born with impulses that draw us to others and that later in life make us care about them.
I can't agree more with the opening ideas in this book. I think that when people think about and write about human nature the focus tends to be on the negative, i.e. the selfish genes and aggression. Rarely is there any real weight given to the qualities that pull us together and keep us interdependent. I believe these are the stronger more important behaviors/qualities of human beings.
The clash between Christianity and Darwinism is to some extent encapsulated in this theme



Wed May 21, 2008 6:31 am
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 13861
Location: Florida
Thanks: 1880
Thanked: 720 times in 572 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)
Highscores: 10

Post 
Quote:
Christian ideas such as love, mercy, forgiveness, justice and grace are precisely the impulses that draw us to others and make us care.


How are these Christian ideas? Weren't they around long before Christianity arived on the scene? These concepts don't owe their origins to Christianity. Seeing as chimps and bonobos display all of the above tendencies or behaviors, AND few chimps or bonobos regularly attend any sort of Christian religious service I'd be hesitant to say these are "Christian ideas."

If you want to give Christianity credit for love, mercy, forgiveness, justice and grace you also must link it with hate, cruelty, condemnation, unfairness, and good old evil. And you probably would rather seperate Christianity from it's dark and disgusting history.


_________________
We generated $419.10 in donations for Christmas gifts for the kids at the Cleveland Christian Home this year. Thank you so much for helping make their Christmas a bit brighter! The gifts have been ordered from Amazon.com and I've posted the invoice.


Wed May 21, 2008 10:32 am
Profile Email YIM WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Thinks Abridged Editions are an Abomination

Gold Contributor

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4079
Location: Canberra
Thanks: 1120
Thanked: 1149 times in 865 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post 
Chris OConnor wrote:
Quote:
Christian ideas such as love, mercy, forgiveness, justice and grace are precisely the impulses that draw us to others and make us care.
How are these Christian ideas? Weren't they around long before Christianity arrived on the scene? These concepts don't owe their origins to Christianity. Seeing as chimps and bonobos display all of the above tendencies or behaviors, AND few chimps or bonobos regularly attend any sort of Christian religious service I'd be hesitant to say these are "Christian ideas." If you want to give Christianity credit for love, mercy, forgiveness, justice and grace you also must link it with hate, cruelty, condemnation, unfairness, and good old evil. And you probably would rather seperate Christianity from it's dark and disgusting history.


Hi Chris, the New Testament proposed a shift from the Mosaic Law of 'eye for an eye' to a more forgiving and merciful approach, and introduced the concept of a loving God as a central theme. Earlier approaches had focussed more on God as a wrathful judge than a creative source of love. As well, the idea of salvation by grace was a distinctively Christian invention, introduced by Christ and explained by Paul. In anthropology, it is interesting to see how the injunction from Christ to love your enemies has led to cultural change in countries, such as Papua New Guinea, where traditional religion taught people to love friends and hate enemies. Yes, it is essential to separate Christianity (the teachings of Jesus) from its history (the behaviour of the church). Robert



Thu May 22, 2008 10:35 pm
Profile Email WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
No End in Sight


Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 70
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 3 times in 2 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post 
Chris OConnor wrote:
I'd be happy to call or email Dawkins for a response. Let's get further into this discussion period and see if we're understanding Frans de Waal. It could be our misunderstanding.


Okay, since I gave my copy of the book to my grandfather I'm working off Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved until I pick up a copy at the library.

In the introduction, it gives this summary re Veneer Theory:

Quote:
De Waal's aim is to argue against a set of answers to his "whence morality?" question that he describes as "Veneer Theory" - the argument that morality is only a thin veneer overlaid on amoral or immoral core.".... His main target is Thomas Huxley.... De Waal's other targets include some social contract theorists (notably Thomas Hobbes)...and some evolutionary biologists who, in his view, tend to overgeneralize from the established role of selfishness in the natural selection process.


I can't remember whether De Waal specifically mentions Veneer Theory in Our Inner Ape but the book clearly forms part of his long-running attempt to show that apes (and thereby humans) are innately moral creatures.



Fri May 23, 2008 7:45 pm
Profile Email
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
No End in Sight


Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 70
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 3 times in 2 posts
Gender: Male
Country: Australia (au)

Post 
The key sentence in the first chapter for me is on page 36 of the hardcover edition (look up Panzee in the index if your copy doesn't match):

"... caretakers generally have a higher opinion of apes' mental abilities than the philosophers and psychologists who write on the topic, few of whom have interacted with these animals on a daily basis."

The same could be said for many other animals too!



Sun May 25, 2008 7:48 am
Profile Email
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Oddly Attracted to Books

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: France
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 33 times in 33 posts
Gender: Female
Country: France (fr)

Post 
My copy has arrived earlier than I thought, and this is just the sort of book I like.

Yes, De Waal mentions selfish genes, and this seems to be rather complex- perhaps we'd need to start reading a third book now to understand the first two... in the mean time, here are extracts from the beginning of the article about Dawkins's book at Wikipedia.



[quote]The Selfish Gene is a book on evolution by Richard Dawkins, published in 1976. It builds upon the principal theory of George C. Williams's first book Adaptation and Natural Selection. Dawkins coined the term selfish gene as a way of expressing the gene-centered view of evolution, which holds that evolution is best viewed as acting on genes, and that selection at the level of organisms or populations almost never overrides selection based on genes. An organism is expected to evolve to maximize its inclusive fitness


_________________
Ophelia.


Wed May 28, 2008 8:23 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Oddly Attracted to Books

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: France
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 33 times in 33 posts
Gender: Female
Country: France (fr)

Post 
Saffron wrote:

Quote:
Just started to read the book and was struck by the paragraph at the bottom of page 1. It starts and ends:


Quote:
This opinion is still very much with us.....We are born with impulses that draw us to others and that later in life make us care about them.


I can't agree more with the opening ideas in this book. I think that when people think about and write about human nature the focus tends to be on the negative, i.e. the selfish genes and aggression. Rarely is there any real weight given to the qualities that pull us together and keep us interdependent. I believe these are the stronger more important behaviors/qualities of human beings.


This is a good point to make, especially at the start of the discussion.
We're so used to thinking in terms of all the reasons why people make choices that have a negative impact on others -whether it's "selfish genes", psychology or culture, that it may become difficult to see those positive forces you mention. Perhaps observation, or books you read, lead to feeling reserved, if not pessimistic, about the good in the human race.
Another thing is that a lot of people write to explain human bad behaviour, and indeed there are volumes to write in many fields, but it is more difficult perhaps to give positive explanations for positive behaviour-- unless you refer to religious beliefs and explanations.
I have no simple explanation for positive forces. Somehow it may become difficult to dare to believe that good things just are.
Explaining it away by hypocrisy and veneer theory certainly sounds too simple -- I imagine these explanations are only valid in some cases.

De Waal writes, page 20:
"This veneer theory, as I call it, became a dominent theme in post-war discussion. deep-down, we humans are violent and amoral."

p 21:
Quote:
Taken to its extreme, the everything-is-selfish position leads to a nightmarish world. Having an excellent nose for shock value these authors
haul us to a Hobesian arena in which it's every man for himself, where people show generosity only to trick others. Love is unheard of, sympathy is absent, and goodness a mere illusion. The best-known quote of those days, from biologist Michael Ghiselin, says it all " Scratch an altruist, and watch a hypocrite bleed."


altruism: Etymology:
French altruisme, from autrui other people, from Old French,
1853
1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species .
Merriam Webster's Dictionary.


_________________
Ophelia.


Last edited by Ophelia on Wed May 28, 2008 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed May 28, 2008 8:45 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.  Go to page 1, 2  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


A Nation Under Judgment by Richard Capriola


BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Featured Books






BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Frankenstein - by Mary ShelleyThe Big Questions - by Simon BlackburnScience Was Born of Christianity - by Stacy TrasancosThe Happiness Hypothesis - by Jonathan HaidtA Game of Thrones - by George R. R. MartinTempesta's Dream - by Vincent LoCocoWhy Nations Fail - by Daron Acemoglu and James RobinsonThe Drowning Girl - Caitlin R. KiernanThe Consolations of the Forest - by Sylvain TessonThe Complete Heretic's Guide to Western Religion: The Mormons - by David FitzgeraldA Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - by James JoyceThe Divine Comedy - by Dante AlighieriThe Magic of Reality - by Richard DawkinsDubliners - by James JoyceMy Name Is Red - by Orhan PamukThe World Until Yesterday - by Jared DiamondThe Man Who Was Thursday - by by G. K. ChestertonThe Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven PinkerLord Jim by Joseph ConradThe Hobbit by J. R. R. TolkienThe Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas AdamsAtlas Shrugged by Ayn RandThinking, Fast and Slow - by Daniel KahnemanThe Righteous Mind - by Jonathan HaidtWorld War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War by Max BrooksMoby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2011. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank