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Saffron 
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 Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:49 am Post subject:
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I want to qualify my statement:
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| It is my belief that it is an innate, wired right into the human brain, urge to wonder why we are alive and what does it all mean. T |
I think it is hardwired to wonder why and how. It makes sense that natural selection would favor learning (the why & how); more specifically, the individuals with a strong curiosity about the world. Wondering about why we are alive is just part of the whole curiosity thing. |
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Lawrence
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: Hi Saffron
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This is the third time I've tried to post a response. I ask you read my blog lawrenceindestin. It may help you understand my posts on topics. I'm into a rewrite to remove anger, vendetta, and crusader rabbit words. My heart has none of that. Now again, my response.
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I think it is hardwired to wonder why and how. It makes sense that natural selection would favor learning (the why & how); more specifically, the individuals with a strong curiosity about the world. Wondering about why we are alive is just part of the whole curiosity thing.
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What you say may be true, it may not be true. Chapters 1 & 2 explain that the question simply cannot be answered, that is our reality. I accept it is your belief. What my essay says is it is inappropriate to impose your belief on another.
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In most cases, I agree that it take maturity to have the sophistication to be able to think outside of ones socialization. A thought - children are less socialized than adults - they are newer at playing the game of society. Maybe they are better at seeing it for what it is - a set of rules we all agree upon, but that can and are sometimes changed.
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You presume the next generation has better insight to life than their parents. Cicero railed that Athens was coming to ruins because the teenagers wouldn't listen to their parents. I respectfully disagree with you. The next generation may indeed rebel from their elders' values but they have no better insight, coordination, or goal toward which to move than their parents.
I look forward to your comments on my blog. Lawrence |
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Saffron
Amazingly Intelligent
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Location: Purcellville, VA
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Saffron
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| lawrenceindestin wrote: |
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I think it is hardwired to wonder why and how. It makes sense that natural selection would favor learning (the why & how); more specifically, the individuals with a strong curiosity about the world. Wondering about why we are alive is just part of the whole curiosity thing.
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What you say may be true, it may not be true. Chapters 1 & 2 explain that the question simply cannot be answered, that is our reality. I accept it is your belief. What my essay says is it is inappropriate to impose your belief on another.
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In most cases, I agree that it take maturity to have the sophistication to be able to think outside of ones socialization. A thought - children are less socialized than adults - they are newer at playing the game of society. Maybe they are better at seeing it for what it is - a set of rules we all agree upon, but that can and are sometimes changed.
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You presume the next generation has better insight to life than their parents. Cicero railed that Athens was coming to ruins because the teenagers wouldn't listen to their parents. I respectfully disagree with you. The next generation may indeed rebel from their elders' values but they have no better insight, coordination, or goal toward which to move than their parents.
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I think the idea that people are genetically wired to be curious is scientifically testable. I am not talking about a belief so much as something I think is part of our biology. If curiousity is biologically programed in, then it would follow that we might be curious about where we came from. I never presumed that the next generation has better insight. I was simple saying that it takes a lot of awareness to be able to see past our soicialization (I would also use "world view" to mean the whole set of information that makes up our socialization). No easy task for anyone, young or old. |
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DWill
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: DWii
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| lawrenceindestin wrote: |
| There seems to be, but there is no way to discount the transgenerational teaching of dogma to youth. Why do few children in America grow up with a well spring of Hinduism or in India not grow up with a well spring of Christianity. |
By "wellspring," I was trying to capture the idea of the undifferentiated impulse to wonder about origins, place in the universe, purpose, etc., not the particular form of worship or belief that this impulse might attach to as the person is socialized. And my point is that the tail (dogma propounded by authority) does not wag the dog (believers) in the manner you assert. This is a difference in our perspectives. You seem thoroughly top-down, whereas I am more bottom-up.
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| Even though I was indoctrinated with dogma about the theistic god of Christianity, as I trusted and prayed I did experience response. I've done business with my god now for too many years not to know a force or power is out there capable and willing to interact in my life. I certainly don't have the whole knowledge of it but I do not feel the fool for trusting in my belief. |
It surprised me at first to hear you talk about belief in god. Then it clicked; you are speaking of something completely individual, not formed from existing traditions. Therefore you feel you have escaped the taint of dogma and have made a free choice. I do have an argument about this, but won't go into it in case I am still not correct about your ideas.
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| I have not heard you express exactly what you are looking for but if you are looking for The Answer it isn't there. The answer is there is no answer, only belief. The unique, individual, and personal belief of each person who chooses an answer. That is our reality. Elevating beliefs about god to be a fact is a fraud. |
I'm not looking for The Answer, either, wouldn't expect to find it. There seem to be many answers that suit people. I would disagree that answers that draw from traditions are invalid just because they're not "original."
Is it possible that you are seeing coercion and dogmatism where there is none? Alluding to Penelope's Bishop's words, what could be considered coercive about them? He is not even urging a belief on anyone, but simply expressing a belief. Is that any different from when you express your beliefs? Is it simply that he is a bishop? These words could easlily have been said by a non-clergy; they are not even specifically Christian.
Well, thanks for reading again. I hope I am "getting you" a little better. You might be frustrated, thinking, "This is all in my essay, can't they read?" But your essay can be difficult to digest and to draw the central points from. You've said that you are revising to make it more unified, and that would be a help.
DWill |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject:
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DWill said to Lawrence:-
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You might be frustrated, thinking, "This is all in my essay, can't they read?" But your essay can be difficult to digest and to draw the central points from. You've said that you are revising to make it more unified, and that would be a help.
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DWill - you are very eloquent and I am a 'jellybrain'. I know I am.
Although I am a 'jellybrain' - I seem to have been born with the attitude - that 'three score years and ten' is not enough.......to sort out what we are doing here and why.
Lawrence is trying to answer the big question.
Do you know those dotty pictures.....which you have to stare at and get both of your eyes (and both sides of your brain into equilibrium) and then you can see the 3D picture?
Well, I think that is what it is like trying to get ones head around spiritual questions. It is not just about reading words.....it is about absorbing ideas.
I think, some things, are spiritually discerned and not intellectually understood.
I am gaining from this discussion and I do thank you. Please don't stop. |
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Saffron
Amazingly Intelligent
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Location: Purcellville, VA
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Saffron
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| lawrenceindestin wrote: |
This is the third time I've tried to post a response. I ask you read my blog lawrenceindestin. It may help you understand my posts on topics. I'm into a rewrite to remove anger, vendetta, and crusader rabbit words. My heart has none of that. Now again, my response.
What you say may be true, it may not be true. Chapters 1 & 2 explain that the question simply cannot be answered, that is our reality. I accept it is your belief. What my essay says is it is inappropriate to impose your belief on another.
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Lawrence,
I had a go at chapter 1, but admitt I have not read your entire blog. I fear I put in my nose, when I really had no business doing so. My appologies.
Saffron |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject:
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Saffron: - Isn't that what this forum is all about.?.........
Don't apologise for putting in your nose.....join my very British nose!
No.....I am a European....I am a European....I must keep repeating that to myself....  |
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Lawrence
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: You guys/gals
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you guys and gals are something else. I love it. I do think Penelope may be cutting closer to the bone. I can't respond to all of you but I'll take a whack at WIll.
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Alluding to Penelope's Bishop's words, what could be considered coercive about them? He is not even urging a belief on anyone, but simply expressing a belief. Is that any different from when you express your beliefs? Is it simply that he is a bishop? These words could easlily have been said by a non-clergy; they are not even specifically Christian.
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He is a man in authority with the chrisma of being a man of "god." It's like I told Penelope, when he speaks of transendence he presumes, and he touches the mind spring in conditiond innocents, that transendence of of course is real. Well, that's a lie. It may or may not be real and all he could honestly declare is that it is his belief.
If I haven't established to your satisfaction that everything in my essay is my belief I have failed to communicate. I tried to say, everything we know about anything, finite or infinite is pretty much personal belief.
I'm with Penelope, Saffron, you may feel you lit a match in a coal bin but come on in, the waters fine. My rewrite is going very well, primarily because good folk like you require me to defend my thoughts and conclusions. Like I told WIii, I have no desire to MAKE you understand what I'm saying. I genuinely desire I might write in such a way you could easily understand. Love to all, Lawrence |
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DWill
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject:
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Penelope, you have forthrightly stated your age under your picture, so it's not time to talk about threescore and ten! (But maybe you are thinking of the line in the Housman poem, "Loveliest of Trees, the Cherry Now"?) You're certainly not a jelly brain, either.
Spiritual discernment, though it's not something I'm certain I grasp, gets short shrift when we talk of religion as though it's just a matter of belief-content. Once we've described all the beliefs, or dogma if you like, that might pertain to a certain religion, there is so much more that people get from their religious experience. This is from reports the sincerity of which I have no reason to doubt.
Will |
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Lawrence
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Dwii
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Once we've described all the beliefs, or dogma if you like, that might pertain to a certain religion, there is so much more that people get from their religious experience. This is from reports the sincerity of which I have no reason to doubt.
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The issue my essay attempts to address is, with 2,800 different dogmas describing the worship of an infinite god in 2,800 different ways, which one is worshiping the "right" god. There is no doubt of the genuiness of the religious experience in Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews. Does that mean if they are all having a genuine experience are they all worshiping the "right" god. I don't know. I say I don't know. I also say neither does anyone else. What I say is our reality is that all we have is our trust in what we believe is what the god of our belief system would have of us.
What causes great confusion and pain are those whose pride requires they be "right" in their choice of god and that means everyone else should believe the same dogma as they do.
I wouldn't want to bet on it Dwii but I think you are getting closer to understanding what I'm saying. (that should scare you.)  |
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Saffron
Amazingly Intelligent
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Location: Purcellville, VA
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 6:15 am Post subject:
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Statement made by DWill:
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| ...there is so much more that people get from their religious experience.This is from reports the sincerity of which I have no reason to doubt. |
and Lawrence:
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| I wouldn't want to bet on it Dwii but I think you are getting closer to understanding what I'm saying. (that should scare you.) |
Am I correct, Lawrence, in my assumption that you were responding to the above comment by Will in the quote above by you? If I am mistaken, disregard my question.
Question - You have stated several times that a person's personal believe can not be questioned (no way to prove or disprove); how then, can you question whether or not a person has sincerely had a religious (Will's word - if you would let me, I'd use spiritual) experience? That is also personal, no other can look inside to verify. No malintent, just trying to clarify and understand.
Saffron |
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Lawrence
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: saffron
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No Saffron, my quote was not in reference to the statement you quoted from Dwill. However, you understand correctly, if a person believes they have encountered "god" it can not be shown they didn't. But it also doesn't mean they did. But if they believe they did it is real to the person who had the experience.
Any personal experience is like that. If you see a beautiful sunset, can you recreate that personal experience in another by pursuasion, argument, or force? I think not. But that does not keep the personal experience from being part of the reservoir of personal experiences by which he/she forms judgments and by which he/she makes choices.
So, have you read any more of my essay? I'm still looking for your comments. L |
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tarav
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: Returning to the Video
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| I felt so bad for the girl in the video. I hope it was a comfort to her that Dawkins knew about her situation and supported her. This kind of discrimination is so common in schools. It is sad. |
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Penelope
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject:
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Tarav, What Girl? What Video?
Dawkins, Bloody Shmawkin,, talks bollocks.....mutter, mutter, mutter...
I am worried in case I am becoming senile?????  |
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tarav
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject:
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Penelope, you're not going senile. lol It is just that this thread is five pages long and kind of meandered away from the topic. Chris' original post is about the alienation atheists feel. He posted a clip about a 13 year old atheist. If you go back to page one you can view it to see what I was referring to.
 Dawkins |
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