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lawrenceindestin 
Gaining experience
Gold Contributor
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 92
Gender: 
Location: Miramar Beach FL
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 Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: DWII
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| Of course, "choosing one's attitude in any set of circumstances" will probably always require that one be able to repel attempts to propagandize and deceive. Therefore even these tactics do not constitute force |
George Orwell and I respectfully disagree with you.
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| George Orwell, in one of his essays, perceptively expressed the impact of community pressure which comes from intergenerational passing of dogma as fact. There really is no choice for a child. To grasp the effect of this kind of thing on a child of ten or twelve, one has to remember that the child has little sense of proportion or probability. A child may be a mass of egoism and rebelliousness, but it has not accumulated experience to give it confidence in its own judgments. On the whole it will accept what it is told, and it will believe in the most fantastic way in the knowledge and power of the adults surrounding it. |
I hope I'm not wearing you out with this stuff. Lawrence[/quote] |
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Penelope
Stupendously Brilliant
Silver Contributor
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 702
Gender: 
Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:44 am Post subject:
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Lawrence:
I quote again our Bishop of Chester, England, in this month's local Parish Magazine:-
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Without transcendent reference for our lives, it is easy to slip into seeing life as a terminal disease with a 100 per cent mortality rate.
Saying this is hardly likely to cause anyone to believe in God. Belief arises in more subtle, less controllable ways, as we are opened up to God's gentle call, which always is the call of love, and therefore doesn't compel or force us to believe. Believing in God is a form of falling in love, of discovering that we are loved, have been loved, and will be loved for all eternity. But love needs belief. |
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lawrenceindestin
Gaining experience
Gold Contributor
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 92
Gender:
Location: Miramar Beach FL
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: penelope
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Penelope,
Please answer three questions. I will be better able to respond appropriately if you do.
1. What did the Bishop's quoted remarks mean to you?
2. What exactly did you want me to understand from them?
3. Did you read my chapter 4 concerning love?
I really appreciate your thinking of me and my essay. I am into the rewrite process and no one knows better than me how much my writing needs the gentleing of a lady's touch. L |
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Penelope
Stupendously Brilliant
Silver Contributor
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 702
Gender:
Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject:
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Dear Lawrence. I am so sorry for causing you bewilderment. This is what happened.
I came home from work this afternoon and our Parish Magazine had been delivered and I sat down to have a drink and a quick peruse of it.
Well, although I haven't been to our village church for over a year, I used to be a regular attender and still get the magazine. When I was reading it I got an awful shock when I read of the death of a very dear man who lives just up the road from me and who was a sidesman at the Church.
He died in March and I did not know. He was ten years younger than me so it was a shock. I felt terribly distraught and was fighting back the tears. I rang his wife and left a message of condolence and when she rang back, I said, I would have been at his funeral if I had known and she so kindly said, ' I know you would Pen' - and that made me really cry.
Anyway - in the same magazine was this excerpt in a letter from our Bishop and I don't know why I thought you might like it. So I posted it on the end of your last post......not actually referring to what you had written.
I suppose I felt the need to keep in touch with like-minded people whist we still have the chance.
Sorry Lawrence - (actually - I am now having a little smile to myself - at this 'lady's touch' causing you such puzzlement).  |
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lawrenceindestin
Gaining experience
Gold Contributor
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 92
Gender:
Location: Miramar Beach FL
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Dear Penelope
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I am honored you consider me like minded with you. I think I used to be as tender hearted as you but I didn't respond to the trials of life, I fought. Fighting caused my spirit to harden. Marine fighter pilot, trial lawyer (barrister to you), corporate exec are just some escapades of my misspent youth. Now I'll respond and in love.
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Without transcendent reference for our lives, it is easy to slip into seeing life as a terminal disease with a 100 per cent mortality rate.
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The unwritten presumption the Bishop makes is: 1. transcendence is a fact, and 2. those who don't think so have nothing but hopelessness and dispair.
My essay says, God can not be a fact only a personal belief. Even when we believe in god we have no certainty our belief is correct. What gives us comfort is trusting in the god of our belief system to be that which he allows us to believe. We really have no more certainty than that and those, like the Bishop, who elevate belief of god into the fact as god do harm.
His next words I call tickeling your ears. They sound sweet and gentle but there is no substance to them.
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| Belief arises in more subtle, less controllable ways, as we are opened up to God's gentle call, which always is the call of love, and therefore doesn't compel or force us to believe. Believing in God is a form of falling in love, of discovering that we are loved, have been loved, and will be loved for all eternity. But love needs belief |
If the truth be known, the Bishop doesn't have a clue how god works. I think it is cruel to tell an innocent "God is calling." They listen, they don't hear anything and then they think something is wrong with them, or they are so sinful they are beyond God's love and are getting his judgment. I submit the Bishop does not have my definition for the motivation to act in love without being selfishly motivated.
The language of love is not words. The language of love is not feelings. The language of love is what you do.
Using words as the Bishop did sets a false hope for a fantacy, fuzzy reality. Without giving you the tools to accomplish the task, the Bishop, and millions of preachers like him doom the listener to failure. My essay sets fourth the true reality of our finite life and gives the reader the tools to live together in peace and love (deep appreciation of and gratitude for the object loved).
My suspecion is my words are tedious for you. All the more reason I appreciate and am grateful for your interaction with me. Lawrence |
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Penelope
Stupendously Brilliant
Silver Contributor
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 702
Gender:
Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject:
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No, No Lawrence...your words are not tedious.
It is a privilidge to be in conversation with you whilst you formulate your words.
But, sometimes I am ready to read and study.....and that is what your essay needs.....study....it can't just be scanned and glossed over. There is nothing wrong with your words.....it s the subject that needs to be read, digested and assimilated...like food.
Our brains are like computers....what we feed into them is what affects our functioning in our lives.
But sometimes....I just need to read and listen and watch and do things for fun.......only sometimes am I able (or inclined) to concentrate enough to study profundities. When I am ready...I seem to be able to soak up information like a sponge......if I am not ready...then I might as well be trying to read Chinese. It is not to do with your essay....but my mental state.
Be assured, I know I am not alone in appreciate your work, and your words will be read and will have an effect.
Thank you. |
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lawrenceindestin
Gaining experience
Gold Contributor
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 92
Gender:
Location: Miramar Beach FL
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: dearest penelope
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| I hear you and I understand. Be at peace. I will continue to try to make my essay easier to read and understand. Lawrence |
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DWill
Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject:
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No, you're not wearing me out. I think children are indeed more vulnerable to community pressure. It seems that your view is that most adults are, too, except the few who realize they can decide to be free. What I might like you to comment on is whether you see a wellspring of religious feeling as being common in humans. I don't mean that all humans have this in equal measure or even at all. I am not religious, for example, but I recognize that most of the people around me are, in the sense that they conceive a god that has some cognizance of them. This cannot be due to their being swayed or brainwashed by dogma; we're not talking about theology in any specific sense. Anyone might say their belief is a delusion, but my point here would be that, if so, it is their delusion. It is not foisted upon them but arises in them and then usually is nurtured or strengthened by an established religious tradition. But it is not created or commanded by that tradition as a general rule. The beliefs that people developed created the tradition, after all.
Do you distinguish between dogma and belief, by the way?
One of these days, I mean to look onto William James' The Variety of Religious Experience. I know he says a lot about what I am groping around for. My concern in the matter you have taken up is giving proper emphasis and achieving the correct perspective. But just as you ask your readers to do, please tell me if I'm not making sense to you. Thanks.
DWill |
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lawrenceindestin
Gaining experience
Gold Contributor
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 92
Gender:
Location: Miramar Beach FL
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: DWii
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| What I might like you to comment on is whether you see a wellspring of religious feeling as being common in humans. |
There seems to be, but there is no way to discount the transgenerational teaching of dogma to youth. Why do few children in America grow up with a well spring of Hinduism or in India not grow up with a well spring of Christianity.
Even though I was indoctrinated with dogma about the theistic god of Christianity, as I trusted and prayed I did experience response. I've done business with my god now for too many years not to know a force or power is out there capable and willing to interact in my life. I certainly don't have the whole knowledge of it but I do not feel the fool for trusting in my belief.
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| Anyone might say their belief is a delusion, but my point here would be that, if so, it is their delusion. It is not foisted upon them but arises in them and then usually is nurtured or strengthened by an established religious tradition. |
The point of my essay exactly. regarding delusion. Regarding religious tradition my essay shows the leaders concern for orthodoxy among their group makes them tyrants and the tail wags the dog.
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| Do you distinguish between dogma and belief, by the way |
Totally and completely. If after reading Chapters 1 & 2 you still do not understand what I'm saying that please let me know.
Your writing is lucid and your thoughts clearly presented. I have not heard you express exactly what you are looking for but if you are looking for The Answer it isn't there. The answer is there is no answer, only belief. The unique, individual, and personal belief of each person who chooses an answer. That is our reality. Elevating beliefs about god to be a fact is a fraud. Best wishes, L |
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Saffron
Senior
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 369
Gender:
Location: Northern Virginia
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: Re: DWII
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[quote="lawrenceindestin"][quote]
George Orwell and I respectfully disagree with you.
| Quote: |
| George Orwell, in one of his essays, perceptively expressed the impact of community pressure which comes from intergenerational passing of dogma as fact. There really is no choice for a child. To grasp the effect of this kind of thing on a child of ten or twelve, one has to remember that the child has little sense of proportion or probability. A child may be a mass of egoism and rebelliousness, but it has not accumulated experience to give it confidence in its own judgments. On the whole it will accept what it is told, and it will believe in the most fantastic way in the knowledge and power of the adults surrounding it. |
And DWill:
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Even so, in general I think I favor a concept of complicity more than the exertion of centralized power, when we talk about how belief systems are created and gain adherents. In most cases, I think people willingly or even eagerly join in, and even have much to do with the belief systems that result. I don't see such a bright line between "people" and powers that control beliefs. But I can't prove this.
Your view does seem to be heavily weighted toward the powers. |
One more reference before I put in my 2 cents.
Lawrence responding to Will:
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| There seems to be, but there is no way to discount the transgenerational teaching of dogma to youth. Why do few children in America grow up with a well spring of Hinduism or in India not grow up with a well spring of Christianity. |
I'll begin with the last reference. If I understand Will correctly, he wasn't saying religion specifically is the yearning, but rather the well spring is a sense, a feeling that there is more to the world than meets the eye. I think this question gets close to it - What or who is it that we sense when we are awe struck? (Did I get to Will?) This sense of awe leads us to postulate about what it all means. Hinduism or Christianity are attempts to answer that question. It is my belief that it is an innate, wired right into the human brain, urge to wonder why we are alive and what does it all mean. The world is wondrous. I think it would be impossible to get through ones life without being awe struck at something. The only explanations for this experience is a spiritual one. Ergo, religion; the attempt to find a cause and put words to the experience.
As for 10 year olds being able to think freely. If this were not so, children would be little mini version of their parents, until that time when they suddenly realized they were free to think what ever they wanted. Cultures would never change if it were not possible for children to think outside of their socialization (that is what you are refereeing to when you speak of passing information from one generation to the next). When scientist study other primate society, it appears that the young members of the troop are responsible for the changes and advances (if you will allow) that occur. In most cases, I agree that it take maturity to have the sophistication to be able to think outside of ones socialization. A thought - children are less socialized than adults - they are newer at playing the game of society. Maybe they are better at seeing it for what it is - a set of rules we all agree upon, but that can and are sometimes changed.
One last musing. Indoctrination, socialization and propaganda are all variations on the same practice. All refer to the process of passing information, values, ideas, morals, rules, beliefs on to another person.
Saffron |
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