Taking Control

President Camacho · Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: Taking Control

What would happen if our politicians really served our interests as democracy suggests that they do?

Let’s say that in every home in America was a device the size of a picture frame (or kindle) mounted on a wall. This device would show you what issues congress would be debating on and ask you if you were interested in giving your input. If you were so inclined, you could read what the issues were and how a yea or nay vote would impact you specifically. Then you could actually vote. Using wireless technology, the vote would be sent to your congressman, sent to a safe database, and you would receive a printed receipt.

The congressman would be able to better serve his constituency by representing their wishes in this way.

Is America ready for something like this? For democracy?

Theomanic · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:42 am Post subject:

Personally, I am not in love with democracy. The problem is that it means the majority rules, which is silly. Just because a lot of people think something is right doesn't mean it is.

I'm happy to vote someone in power and let them and the people around them make decisions. If they're bad, they won't stay in power. It's like hiring someone to do a job and then not trusting them to do it. I certainly don't know how to run a country, who am I to tell the leader of the country how to do it?

The idea of every person in America having a vote on every issue, easily and conveniently? Chilling. Is America ready for it? I couldn't say. I think that those higher in power do realize the less they let the people have say in, the better.

Ophelia · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:22 am Post subject:

P. Camacho wrote:

Theomanic · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:38 am Post subject:

I often feel there should be tests for a lot of things. But sadly, there is no one trustworthy enough to write these tests. Voting is a good example, and also parenting. Some people just should be barred from these practices till they become informed individuals. It's not even about education, it's about common sense. Maybe that should be the test for all such things. A common sense test. Smile

Ophelia · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:28 am Post subject:

Mr President,

What you suggested is a modern version of direct democracy, which only exists, I think, in Switzerland.

Nobody ever much hears about the Swiss, so we can suppose that this system works for them.
It's a small country with mostly reasonable citizens, not given as a group to wild or irrational behaviour.

The electronic aspect you've introduced would help to solve some of the practical problem direct democracy entails:

- It's expensive to organize a poll "every other Sunday" as the Swiss will tell you.

- Regular voting leads to even greater voter apathy than in a representative democracy.

One would think it's wonderful to be able to give your opinion on everything, but the reality is in fact rather boring from what I heard.

So, the "kindle" device would take care of that, and that leads to the next problem: who reads the laws before voting on them?

Do you remember this scene from Farhrenheit 9/11 when a US Representative tells Michael Moore that they don't know what's in the laws, it would take too much time to read them, they just vote them!
And after that you see M Moore in a van reading the Patriot Act with a loudspeaker in front of Congress?

I was amazed that a Congressman should dare to say a thing like that on camera-- he didn't look in the least embarrassed.

I thought those people were trained to understand difficult legal texts and that it was their duty to do so.

Then now we also have French MPs telling journalists (off camera) that they wouldn't mind answering their questions about such and such bill, but couldn't the journalist sum up the bill for them first because they're so busy and have so much reading to do?

So, you might say, if the MPs don't read the bills, perhaps the voters wouldn't do any worse?

Still, for the moment, I'd say representative democracy is the best we can do.

Penelope · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:30 am Post subject:

This is an interesting thread.

We used to have honourable MP's. I know we did because my Mum used to talk to me about them and what they were trying to achieve in setting up our National Health Service etc.

I have read some of the biographies of these men. Bevan, Michael Foot, Clement Atlee etc.....they are from the 1940/50's. Surely there are still some men of integrity left in Government.

It is just so difficult to identify them because everything now is about 'image'. Michael Foot - had no image....he looked like a scarecrow all of his life....but he had complete integrity and people trusted him. What has happened to us? When Tony Blair was elected as our leader it was in preference to a man called Robin Cook. Robin, was no oil painting, a small ginger headed dwarf - but with more intelligence in his little finger that all the rest put together. But he hadn't got the glamour and appeal of Mr. Blair.

Too much spin.....too much on personality and appearance....not enough on integrity and substance.

The Western World has become dazzled by 'glamour'.

We are influenced, not to say 'conditioned' by the the newspapers and the television....to admire the wrong things about a person.

President Camacho · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:03 am Post subject:

Humans have come quite a long way because of how we are able to build on our collective knowledge. Common sense yesterday is no longer common sense today. Sometimes knowledge is gained and sometimes it is lost. Though, it’s hard to dispute that progress has been made.

Our existence and social development as a species reminds me of the stock market. It has its ups and downs but is forever moving in an upward trend.

Some see this as a maturing of our species and its societies. We are learning and growing smarter with every new generation. Although there will be ‘dips’ and not every individual will be a “winner”, we will be growing wiser as a species (upward trend).

Sometimes I wonder if this upward trend can be helped or not. Can we find some way of eliminating or decreasing the magnitude of the dips? Whatever happens, it doesn’t seem like social progress can be forced.

I also wonder if social progress would somehow be retarded or skewed with the implementation of more licenses and tests. Valuable lessons can be learned from making mistakes. We might need to make them individually and as a society/species in order to grow.

I find it super interesting that people are paranoid of other people (I am too). That is awesome. It's almost like they know that the average person is fickle, ignorant, and can't be trusted. It seems like almost everyone feels this way. So, each individual, with their own needs and desires will elect another individual and hope that somehow their needs and desires will be fulfilled.

If everyone was forced to make a decision on how to run the nation, there would be motivation to make sure that everyone was educated because every individual's decision would affect everyone else. We would be pummeled with brainwashing campaigns and would soon realize how to identify and disregard them (after a few mistakes). There would be a national movement for truth and a promotion of intellectualism. We would be constantly afraid that some group would out-vote our interests. It would be almost a daily competition and your voice would always count. Battle Royal! Doesn't that sound exciting? Doesn't that sound like you have power and freedom?
Mario

Theomanic · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:12 am Post subject:

It sounds like you're dreaming of a Utopian nation. You have a lot of assumptions that would be nice, but I doubt would be the way events would unfold. People can hardly be moved to care about voting for the leader of their country, in North America at least. Now the nation is going to shake move in order to educate people so they can vote on the latest traffic bylaw?

The US voted Bush in to power twice. That's all I need to know. Smile

Penelope · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:18 am Post subject:

Oooh lovely post Mr President!!! I am not being sarcastic. This post filled me with hope....because I know what you mean....and you are only 26 so where is the age gap????

President Camacho · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:29 am Post subject:

That’s interesting Ophelia, I really didn’t think about the voter apathy part of it. This sounds like a very distinct possibility. I think that this could be corrected by still maintaining a functional representative but one that is required to consult what the people want by looking at his “kindle”. He wouldn’t have to vote the way that the people did (unless there was an overwhelming majority and strong voter turnout) but at the end of his term his votes could be compared to what the people voted for. By doing this it would enable the people to find out if they were truly being represented or not.

I agree that politicians are ignorant on most of the issues they vote on. When congress voted to go into Iraq, the vast majority of congressmen did not look at the National Intelligence Estimate made by the CIA prior to voting. They only scanned through the white house report made by the bush administration. Talk about irresponsible.

Penelope, that was a great post and I totally agree. It seems like image is everything in today’s world. I also don’t understand why everyone loves hearing about non-pertinent issues such as homosexuality. Who cares? Does it affect how I’m going to get my next meal, put clothes on my back, or find a home if two guys get married? Nooo… but that’s just me. People love these scandalous issues… issues which should be kept secret. I don’t want to know how you have sex, what you do if you should become pregnant, or what you do with the consent of any other adult. I don’t want to know.

President Camacho · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:39 am Post subject:

T,

bush won both elections by barely a legal margin. Some are questioning if he was ever truly the legally elected president. In both elections the voter turnout was probably the worst, statistically speaking, in history.

The pulse of America has quickened quite a bit since we made OUR mistake which happened to affect every country on the globe. Please keep an eye on how many people are registered to vote during this presidential election. How many people are voting republican? How many people are voting for the status quo or for change? I think you'll like what you see. There is more involvement now. Just look at how much coverage the democrats are getting over the republican candidate. Progress is coming.

Penelope · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:56 am Post subject:

I am so boring.....got married to lovely man...had kids, became grandma!

It all seemed so simple then.....to quote the corney song.

Just as a by-the-way. Some of our most sensitive artists, writers, poets and, it must be said, politicians, were homosexual.

Some of our very great comedians...still are.

At the moment, I feel the world needs comedians....don't you? Smile

Ophelia · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject:

You have a knack for creating fascinating discussions Mr President (and I'm sure your invitation at the ball is well-desereved. Just direct your chauffeur to ask for "le Château" on arrival).

President C wrote:

President Camacho · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject:

Good for you Ophelia! Laughing

I am the same way! Once burned, twice learned!

Theomanic · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject:

Prez: It's interesting to comment that on one hand, the politicians should be more informed about their votes, but on the other hand admit you yourself don't care about certain issues because of squeamishness.

As to the relevancy of those issues; no, they don't directly relate to putting clothes on ones back, but just because they don't affect you personally don't mean they're not important. These issues are not gaining press simply because they're "scandalous", but because they deal with human rights.

As you're a man, I can see how pregnancy and the rights of the mother versus the rights of the fetus wouldn't seem particularly relevant to you. But they are extremely important: literally a matter of life and death. To dismiss it because it is related to sex, and doesn't "put clothes on your back" is extreme, to say the least.

And honestly, "non-pertinent issues such a homosexuality"? People who are homosexual want the same rights as straight people. This is not a minor wish. By not giving homosexuals the same rights, it delegates them to being a "lower" class of individual. That is a very important issue. And very pertinent to homosexual people.

None of those issues should be kept secret. Peoples personal choices should be their own business, but the issues are very important. Just because you don't find them relevant to you doesn't mean they have no relevance. Even calling the right for gay people to marry "scandalous" indicates a certain thought process on your part. It certainly doesn't seem scandalous to me.

As to the comment that Bush barely won both elections: that argument always irks me. As if getting 51% of the vote means only 30 people voted for him. Isn't it more like 30+ million people? Gee, is that all. And really, he won. Dickering over margins is irrelevant.

Pen: The world always needs comedians. Just like the king always needed to have a jester around to show him of his errors.


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